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Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It’s really not THAT ugly. There are by far uglier steam locomotives.!

    I really do think it’s a case of conditioning where LNER enthusiasts are concerned!

    But hey, beauty in the eye of the beholder and all that.
     
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  2. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    A very good friend of mine described the original A1 as "where God guided Gresley's hand."

    Aesthetics transcend designers and sorry to say, but Thompson got it badly wrong with the rebuilt Great Northern. His B1 looks fine by comparison, if a little functional. But again, we must see the B1 within the context of the time it was designed and built.
     
  3. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    While understanding what @ross means (and noting there was the odd crime against style in this country too!), there were many honourable exceptions and not even all were painted plain black. Here's one of my all-time favourites (image credit www.tvnp.fr) designed by Marc deCaso built in 1949 and survives, stuffed and mounted, at the French National Railway Museum in Mulhouse:
    SNCF-vapeur-232-U-1.jpg.cf.jpg
     
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  4. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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  5. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    How much "wriggle" room would there be for the luxury of considering aesthetics in the design process? Wartime austerity and short staffing would put it way down the list I would have thought.
     
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  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Maybe I have no taste but I’ve never looked at a loco and thought ‘that is ugly’.

    I do look at say GWR locos and ask myself ‘is all that copy necessary?’ And I suspect some designs especially in the C19were more style than substance.
     
  7. Copper-capped

    Copper-capped Part of the furniture

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    GWR gave us the "Kruger" {shudder}. They spent the next 50 years over-compensating by producing magnificently embellished, stunning looking locos by way of an apology. ;)
     
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  8. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    IMHO the best looking ones were the three S.A.C.M. 4-4-2s prior to rebuilding.

    PH
     
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  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ah, loco aesthetics.

    On purely aesthetic grounds (and no other) can I stick my head above the parapet and say that Gresley A4s have never really done it for me. :eek:

    Of the LNER Pacifics, “Flying Scotsman” as built was beautiful, but every subsequent modification made it progressively uglier. The Peppercorn Pacifics have a definite “presence”. Not really a fan of any of the others ...

    Tom
     
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  10. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Whereas, for me, the A4s are the most aesthetically pleasing steam locomotive design of all, and Flying Scotsman (like the Princess Royals over the road at Euston) lacks a certain presence which the Peppercorn pacifics provide (as do the unstreamlined Coronations).

    It may be relevant in assessing my aesthetic choices to note that one of my favourite aircraft designs is the Phantom, which has been described as many things, but rarely "beautiful".
     
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  11. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Not a bad choice although IMO the EE Lightning tops it.
     
  12. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    Well, had it not been for the First World War the northern section of the ECML might have been electrified before 1923; presumably, at York Gresley's Pacifics would have handed over to one of these...!

    https://www.lner.info/locos/Electric/ee1.php
     
  13. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    To me, an A4 in original condition, with valences, in silver or in blue with chrome lettering, is simply magnificent. In fact, they transcend the realm of locomotive aesthetics: they are, genuinely, a design icon (a phrase which is sadly over-used!).

    By contrast, as soon as you take the valences off, they suddenly look like they have hit an immovable object at great speed, and hence developed an awful bend in the middle. Aesthetics are a very delicate balance, and it doesn't take much to upset them.

    A3s are maybe not quite so striking at first sight. But the more you look at them, the more you appreciate the beautifully-sculpted curves of the running plate. When you see photographs of them in the '60s, grubby and battered, they still manage to look stylish by comparison with the lesser engines around them!
     
  14. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    102 of course was a smaller loco than 103/4 (and IMHO was rather prettier than the other two).
     
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  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    It survived until 1950 and then was cut up. Utterly criminal.
     
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  16. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Over compensating suggests some inadequacies - a bit like aging men and their sports cars.

    I had a collection of old trains illustrated/modern railways magazines from around 1962 and there was a series of articles by Brian Haresnape about design and what designers are trying to convey. I really liked the articles. He is supposed to have written a book on design and colour but I’ve drawn a blank on finding it.
     
  17. JJG Koopmans

    JJG Koopmans Member

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    Try "Railway Liveries......" and "Design for..." at Abebooks
     
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  18. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Ahem, Ross 5005 in this condition could never be described as 'stunning' image.jpg Although as someone who likes Ivatt 4MT's and 15xx Pannier tanks maybe I'm in no position to judge!
     
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  19. Muzza

    Muzza New Member

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    It does have the potential to stun........... but maybe not in a good way.
     
  20. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    It is a rather phallic design - over-compensating again?

    Thanks. I'll give it another go, last time I tried I drew a blank
     

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