Do railtour operations need a unified voice ?

Recently, a number of steam hauled Pathfinder Tours have originally been rostered to 34046, which as we know is out of action at the minute. I draw your attention to the Pathfinder website (more specifically to the 'Solent Pacific' page). It clearly says at the bottom of the page that if 34046 is unavailable, then either 70000 or 4464 will step in. They said something very similar when they ran the Pompey Pacific railtour last September - if 34046 is unavailable, another Pacific will be sought.

Personally, I think as long as the promoter has a back up 'pool', like Pathfinder do, then there should never be a problem...

James at SVN

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Where a footnote like the one to which you refer is included it's less of a problem I agree. Unfortunately the Pathfinder example is not the example followed by RTC who clearly believe in the "carrot waiving" method of doing business, i.e. soaking up the potential railtour market months ahead with enticing prospects which may or may not actually happen.

I am myself very tempted by "The Tin Bath" tour next March but after contacting 5 friends to suggest we book a group of 6 First Class seats, at least two of them, (only two have responded to date) are reluctant to book for fear the tour will either not happen at all or the route will change, not to mention the availability of the two Black 5s, which on this tour you could argue is something of a "selling point". Consequently, RTC will not be getting a booking worth £594 until much closer to the running date, by which time other interests may have intervened.

Also, you've got to remember that RTC will want money up front for these trips so you kiss goodbye to a considerable sum now for something from which you won't benefit for 7 months, and may well bear no resemblance to what you originally paid for when it happens. This is where reputation is so crucial to an organisation. RTC are fast becoming known as the Tour Operator that promises a lot but often delivers less unfortunately. This will have a knock on effect in time as people simply won't part with hard earned money for something they fear will turn out to be something different from what they expected. The more enticing the offers, the more profound any disappointment will be if the offer isn't delivered.

If RTC are confident in their product why don't they introduce a deposit system for booking railtours ? It used to be a common practice a few years ago, (albeit on request), and indeed UKR will still delay charging a debit / credit card for a railtour full stop until 4 weeks before it runs to this day ! A much fairer way of doing business quite frankly. I'd also be interested to know whether RTC match revenue they receive now for tours they expect to run next year, against costs they are incurring now, as that would be contrary to the "matching concept" of Accounting Principles.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

An old recurring theme. If you sell a product and deliver an different one you are at risk of mis-selling. One day this will be challemeged in a Court by a disgruntled customer and they will win, hence the policy of paying people off at the threat of legal action.

1. You cannot guarantee a train will run more than 12 weeks in advance - make that clear
2. If you do not have a valid contract for the loco you are advertising, make that clear too that it is the intention and maybe list potential alternatives.
3. Don't take the money until you have water tight contracts all round

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Quite right ! Hope ND or someone else from RTC is reading this. To me, they could happily get away with imposing substitute traction, (provided it's still steam), as most are tolerant of that as has already been discussed, but route changes like those imposed on "The Lincoln Imp" recently, which not only saw the promised departure from SPI withdrawn , but also a large proportion of the steam mileage, simply is not on, and that message needs to be driven home in no uncertain terms in my view ! Maybe a test case in the courts is the way that'll finally happen ?

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

I someties think that tour operators don't take into consideration that some customers have other associated costs - travel to the promised start and accommodation to reflect the start and finish time. In essence, the tour is the focal point and resaon for being in that part of the country. Accommodation can be secured at a discount but that is non-refundable in most cases, so a loss can be significant on top of the tour. If it is not the tour you bought you can understand the anger.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

The travel and accommodation point is a good one, and you can indeed understand the anger if after already paying for the tour PLUS associated costs, you dont get what you pay for.

I sometimes think those out there who maintain everything is "fine and dandy" all the time are those lucky enough not to have to travel far to join the majority of Railtours. I lived in central London between 1992 and 1997 and could walk to any London Terminus within a maximum of one hour so I was always very cool about early starts / late finishes as my journey home was always independent of the transport network. When I moved to the west country however it was a different story, and now I am limited to those tours that start from Bristol etc. The only station I can walk to though is Weston-super-Mare so that limits me to The Torbay Express only unless I invest in either expensive peak time travel or overnight accommodation, both of which add to the cost. I am only likely to do that therefore if I'm confident a railtour is going to run as advertised. Is that really such an unreasonable expectation in the 21st Century ?

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

It's an interesting thought.... I did a very quick analysis of the UK Steam Info site to see if these arguments stack up and the results were revealing. A quick glance (and don't quote me for the veracity of all the info posted on UKSI) showed the following for the calendar year to date:

Steam Dreams: Tours planned - 35, Tours cancelled - 1 (3%), Tours significantly changed - 6 (17%)
Railway Touring Co: Tours planned - 64, Tours cancelled - 9 (14%), Tours significantly changed - 6 (11%)

I didn't bother with the other players, these two seem the most active in the market. I don't pretend that this a scientific approach but it produced some intriguing results nevertheless.

Foxy

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Living west of the Severn puts me in a similar position. However, booking an hotel which allows cancellation up to 24h before the reservation and buying rail tickets at the station (it amazes me that I can still get a better deal this way rather than booking in advance, even if it means buying multiple single tickets!) on the day of travel can soften the blow of a cancelled tour.

Foxy

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

With respect the above doesn't really indicate take anything away from the argument that RTC operate an "unusual" business model. 6 tours significantly changed out of 64 planned may not seem a lot but it's 6 too many. Just think what impact this might have had on those who booked and who else they may have told. We just cannot afford this complacent attitude. It's like saying, "yes we did crash a train and killed everybody on board but it was only one out of a hundred trains we ran." The percentage may be small but people always remember the bad more than the good, and this is why I believe the whole industry needs to up its game if it's to continue being seen by the Public as a credible leisure activity, and worthy of investing in.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

It can soften the blow you're right but this is still putting the onus on the consumer to protect him / herself from the "unreasonable actions" of the seller which isn't acceptable. We all accept I'm sure that in exceptional circumstances people may find themselves out of pocket in situations similar to this, and where reasonable we take it on the chin by and large. Where planning, organisation and poor communication consistently lead to the same outcome however, I believe the story to be somewhat different.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

But every loco advertised in the pool has to be able to actually do the job. That is totally relevant otherwise it is mis-selling in the wider sense.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

So what you're saying then Ralph is that the other locos in the pool are not "standby" locos in the old fashioned SLOA sense of the word ?

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Spot on NU.

Ralph, you're missing the point. RTC in their infinite wisdom have seen fit to advertise an itinerary and match that itinerary against a pool of locomotives right ?

We have seen today that one of the locomotives in that pool is in fact not fit (gauged) for the advertised itinerary so NU's point is that RTC are advertising something they cannot deliver ?

Does that make sense or do I need to try again ?

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

This is a prime example of where an exclusion clause taken to the ultimate test would be found to be wanting.

The Goods and Services Act provides that a vendor must exercise a reasonable level of care and skill in the product sold. Arranging a pool of locos that aren't even allowed over the route could not really be described as either careful or skilful no matter how you approach the question.

Test Failed - Refund time! Simples!

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

There can't be another point of view that legally speaking is valid. I understand that you work with RTC and others and would wish to defend - that is your right. Neither is that sentence a criticism of you. However objectivity will always win out over subjectivity. You cannot advertise something that does not work - end of. TBird Frank is spot on.

 

Re: NORTH WALES COAST EXPRESS 2012

Utterly unbelievable. NR seriously need to explain themselves here. Incidently 45305 is also in the pool, but is covering out of Carnforth due to other shortages. 6233 clearly was considered in gauge until ver recently, as she has been that route several times before. Perhaps some people would like to suggest how RTC are able to produce in gauge locos out of thin air? There is a shortage of locos everywhere at the moment, a best case viable alternative was put forward; NR being obstructive prevented the situation being rescued and serious questions need asking.

 

Re: NORTH WALES COAST EXPRESS 2012

This is not a black and white situation, but one of various shades of grey.

NR come out of today as the worst player - but what's new there? They do have utter contempt for the market - but until the market reacts with a single voice this will continue to happen.

Yet again - We need that industry forum but it needs people of greater vision than we currently have at the minute to grasp the nettle.

Promoters do have a duty of care in their planning of operations, and publicising a pool comprising locos that have been known to be banned on the route all summer is NOT good practice. I'm not at all bothered where RTC procure their motive power from. I am concerned that they make robust and justifiable provision - which they have actually failed to do with the current composition of this pool. If you choose to sell a product to the public you have a legal obligation to make it resilient.

If their pool had been resilient and capable of substitution the Friday loco could have been flashed up and done the job - if NR had been up to the call.

Failure all round.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Well on this issue its not a point of view Ralph, its a point of fact. The definition of a pool of locomotives, as described by Frank has not been met. End of !

RTC are showing themselves increasingly wanting in the basics department. That does not inspire confidence at any level. It's only this week we read for example that they have advertised 60007 running back to York from Kings X on "The Tynesider" when 60007s own website states they are only present for the up journey. I guess this will be explained away as a "clerical error" ?

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

All these arm chair lawyers giving legal definitions seem to have one thing in common that prevents any action being taken...

Lack of A ticket for todays train.

One wonders the rationale behind such loving legal advice continually being dished out for free.
We don't even have facts behind why it's diesel hauled today, infact the train hasnt even arrived back yet. We don't even know what's been arranged for the passengers...
But hey why not get the knife in hard and deep eh boys...