Counting Rivets thread (Stanier/Fowler tenders)

Split off discussion from the 5699 is it, isnt it thread....

A discussion about rivets..

Stanier (and Fowler) tenders were created with rivets or welding, presumably depending on age / works.

Does anyone know which works did which working method, which type was predominance (rivet or welded).


In particular in preservation..

which LMS locos entered preservation with a rivet tender, as opposed to a welded version, which locos swapped to a restored welded version (or has anyone created a riveted tender tank ?) which locos have false rivet heads.. (isnt 6100 or 46115 in this category ?)

 

The Stanier tenders were either welded or riveted, and it was largely down to the year built. Later tenders were part riveted, part welded due to some instances of leaking welded seams.

The 'Fowler' tenders were all riveted, originally using counter-sunk rivets, but Stanier introduced snap-head rivets. The former were filled and flatted during painting so gave a flush, smooth surface, the latter were very visible.

 

4F no. 4123 entered Barry with its original, i.e. with the loco since new, fully flush rivetted tender. (Which for the Fowler tender geeks among you is one of the earlier types without lockers/doors between the footplate and the coal space).

As the original tank is of course too far gone to be salvageable we are going to build a new one, and indeed have started to assemble the necessary 'flat pack' of sheet steel parts. The intention is to make the tank flush rivetted, partly to make sure it looks right, partly to preserve the skills, and partly because we like a challenge. We will resort to some welding where it won't be noticed and where the effort of rivetting would be disproportionately time consuming. Also, these days it is possible to buy steel sheet in sufficiently large sizes to avoid joining two (or more) plates as was done originally, and thus avoid large numbers of rivets which do nothing more than get you a piece of plate of the right size.

An example is the water well/sump which sits between the inner frames, and was originally constructed in three sections butt-rivetted together and rivetted on to main tank bottom plate via lengths of angle. We have made this in one piece from a sheet of steel 15ft wide, and have also done away with the need to rivet on angles, by pre-forming mating flanges in the 'U' piece. This will have many hundreds of rivets and will never be noticed...unless you are clambing around under the tender with a torch and rivet counting notebook...

 

It should also cut down the weight, which was one reason for going to welded tanks on the Stanier tenders. The loss of rivets and, even more so, the butt plates was reckoned to reduce the weight by about a ton.

 

Slightly off topic, but does anyone recall the GWR Collett 4000 gal tenders which were flush sided (they still had the flare on the top) as opposed to riveted. I remember seeing them behind various Castles in the early 60's. I don't think there were too many made, sort of a cross between a normal Collett 4000 gal tender & a fully flush sided Hawksworth one.