Brake van rides?

No quite sure which forum to post this in, but here it goes. To operate a single locomotive and brake van aka Aln Valley, Helston or Bideford style operation, is their a requirement for continuous vacuum or air brakes or does the brake in the van suffice. Supposing the van is manned at all times. Help on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

 

Yes, the van needs a vac brake. We hired one of the Bowes ones whilst Shildon's original 20 tonner was being refitted. Now Shildon runs with 2 vans, one through piped but the other fitted.

 

Ah right i believed you could as long as the van hand brake was sufficient to stop the van in the event of a run away.

 

I'm reluctantly going to disagree with you to some extent, Anthony. The Regs no longer require a brake that is capable of being applied throughout the train. The Railway Safety (Miscellaneous Provisions) Regs 1997 now state that "The operator of a vehicle shall ensure that a suitable and sufficient braking system is provided and maintained for that vehicle and, where the vehicle is part of a train of vehicles, for that train of vehicles." Provided that the brake van brake can reasonably stop the loco plus van it is arguable that this is sufficient. However, I would add a caveat that, if the van is being propelled, the person who can apply the brakes must be on the front verandah so, if your brake is in the middle of the vehicle, it is not acceptable when being propelled. There is also a requirement for a suitable and sufficient means whereby the passenger can communicate with a person who is in a position to take action in an emergency.
The NRM at Shildon have, in the past (at least) used locos with a vac brake that is not a combination brake so applying such a brake does not apply the loco brake, only the van. This is OK if you are using a relatively small 0-4-0ST but, if you were using (say) an Austerity 0-6-0ST in similar circumstances, it would not be acceptable because the van brake would probably not stop the Austerity. i.e. 20 ton van, coefficient of friction = 0.25 gives braking force of 20 x 2240 x 0.25 = 11,200 lbf. T.E. of an Austerity = 23,870 lbf. The Austerity wins, hands down!

 

Rob, see my response to Anthony. You're not wrong but you're not necessarily right!

 

The reason i ask is that Bowes do not currently have a vac fitted locomotive avaliable for service, without investment which we do not currently have. Based on the model of other heritage sites, Bideford and Helston spring to mind. So we are investigating brake van rides with a non vac fitted locomotive and we are looking for advise towards an official application.

 

Steve Turner will be your ORR contact. I've PM'd you his contact details.

 

I don't know if it's any help, but on the BHR the passenger train runs as a fixed rake throughout the day, engine bunker first, then two open passenger vehicles, then the TOAD with veranda facing toward the rear of the train. This means that the guard has a full view of the road ahead when propelling, and has his or her hand never too far from the vacuum brake. As we run along the quayside where the public are free to walk across the track, this is especially important.
The loco driver must be able to see a green flag held by the guard. If the green flag is not visible, the train should not proceed.

 

Thank you to you all, all of your advise has been taken on board and we are compiling some evidence to submit to the railways committee and to the local ORR officer. The plan as it currently stands is a single brake van, with possibly B24 a open waggon for disabled access (unbraked) being pushed uphill be the locomotive. This would allow the locomotive to remain at the downhill end of the train (a.k.a. Snowdon type operation). The guard would remain in the van communicating via a two way radio system, already in place and a flag system as mentioned by Corbs.

Thanks again folks.

 

No problem. I don't have a digital copy of our operations book but can try and remember stuff from it.

One question - is the track completely separate from any kind of public access? Are there any level crossings?

 

Rob, a question: How does a member of the public in the wagon communicate with someone who can stop the train? Reg 4 says:
"The operator of a vehicle which is being used for the carriage of fare paying passengers shall ensure that there is provided and maintained on such a vehicle suitable and sufficient means whereby passengers can communicate with a person who is in a position to take appropriate action in the event of an emergency."

 

That's interesting. There's no device on the BHR but to be honest you'd be better off shouting as they are open carriages.

 

That may well be suitable and sufficient in the circumstances of the operation, especially if it works.

 

Good question, a number of options i guess, dont use the waggon, a second guard with radio or shout, but will raise this point and report back.

 

Yes Corbs we have one level crossing and four pedestrian crossings but other than the those the track is not a right of way.

 

You probably want to think about having a horn or bell on the brake van so that the guard can sound a warning at the crossings.

 

As with all such things if it's properly risk assessed then there shouldn't be an issue but your ORR officer will be able to advise and direct you. It might be worth thinking of putting an extra vacuum valve in the leading verandah of the brake van so that when propelling the guard can apply the train brakes without having to dive inside.

 

It might give the guard a nice satisfying feeling to have hold of a vacuum brake valve on the verandah, but in practice it'd be useless for stopping the train!
I thought the whole point of the OP's thread and question was the legality of using a loco not fitted for air/vacuum brake operation, just relying on the brake on the guard's van to be able to stop the train.

 

Yes, this, and a whistle he/she can blow in to.

If it's a gated level crossing then I assume it's manned? If it's ungated there should be a member of staff on the ground with a green/red flag to allow the train to pass.