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35009, Shaw Savill

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by KentYeti, Jul 24, 2010.

  1. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    I guess someone who knows what is happening to this fine machine will be able to add to this thread.

    But today is then 46th anniversary of a very fine run I timed behind that Merchant Navy.

    My 24th July 1964 started on the 07.20 Waterloo-Basingstoke, (34088), then back to Waterloo with that lovely gentleman Fred Hoare and his fireman Pete Allen and 34077 on the 06.49 ex Salisbury. They had worked up to take the down Atlantic Coast Express. And on the 24th July 1964 that was headed by none other than 35028, "Clan Line". 80 minute schedule to Salisbury for the 83.7 miles. We did it in 77 and a half minutes with a severe speed restriction just after Grateley and a signal stop outside of Salisbury!

    The it was the turn of 35009, Shaw Savill. Diver Hill and fireman Bacon had a 6 and a half minute late start with her on the up Atlantic Coast Express from Salisbury, with a 12 car train. We would have been almost on time into Waterloo but for a signal stop outside. Lovely running all the way. 52 mph up Porton Bank, then gently down to Andover and as far as Overton: I suspect the crew were sorting the fire out. Then the pacific was opened up and we were at or over the 80 mph mark from just after Oakley to approaching Surbiton, apart from 78 mph over MP31. 89 mph max though Basingstoke must have had anyone waiting there scurrying back away from the platform edge. We averaged fractionally over 80 mph for the 50.1 miles from Overton to Earlsfield. My longest distance at that average with steam. Helped by a liberal interpretation of the 60 mph speed limit in from New Malden of those days: ACE drivers tended to consider they had special dispensation if running late!

    A quick fill in turn saw me get to Basingstoke on the 15.54 local behind 73081, then back behind unrebuilt 34061 and an even time start to stop Basing-Woking on the 15.00 ex Bomo West.

    Now it was 35009 Shaw Savill again with the Hill and Bacon combination on the footplate. A totally unfussed non stop to Andover at 66 minutes for the 66.3 miles, 3 minutes inside the 69 minute schedule. A gentle run with 12 cars that shows if given an 80 minute schedule and only the extra speed restriction under the aqueduct near MP31, 35028 could match the old ACE schedule even with the current 75 mph speed limit.

    Final steam run of the day was behind 34090 on the 17.54 Exeter-Waterloo. A run that ran into severe signal checks from approaching Woking and then on and off all the way to Waterloo.

    A great day, with two Merchant Navy Pacifics that survive to the current day both putting in very good performances.

    35028 has regularly showed she is still capable of such work. Let's hope that one day 35009 will be given the same chance again.
     
  2. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Hi,

    This was posted on the Bulleid past or present thread back in June which came off another forum.


     
  3. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    Ian Riley always stated that if he was unable to sell her he would overhaul her as and when contract work and existing locos allowed. With both his fives completed the above quote should show his intentions! He bought her having been impressed with the power of Tangmere, I doubt that has gone away. I'm not sure he's still going ahead with the modified tender which was mooted a while back.
     
  4. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Thanks for that. If that points to 35009 one day getting back on the main line then I shall be one very happy bunny.

    That class were masters of their work and even on the so called "tight" Atlantic Coast Express schedules showed they had very large amounts in reserve. My fastest net time to Salisbury was nearly 8 minutes inside the 80 minute schedule, (with the 85 mph limit only exceeded once). And of course the very famous Revd. J.E.T Phillips recorded run in July 1962 with 35020 on a full 12 car load, showed the class as absolute masters of that route. My assessment of the net time for that run is under 68 minutes for the 83.7 miles, (100 mph max below Basingstoke), and it ranks as one of the UK's all time superb steam locomotive runs.

    And my own experience standing behind driver Fred Burridge on the footplate of 35003 that night on 26th June 1967, and seeing the incredible ease with which the MN, (albeit on a very light load), reached 106 mph just over seven and a half minutes after leaving Basingstoke. No fuss whatsoever by the loco. If it wasn't for the speedo, my stop watch and that of the 20 or so highly experienced timers in the front coach that night, you could have been forgiven for thinking the loco controls had been set for an amble along to Woking on the easy schedule the last up Weymouth train had in those days. I still wonder what speed we could have reached that night if Fred had used full throttle and a longer cut off!
     
  5. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    I would say it is very likely it will return to the mainline so long as it remains with it's current owner, how quickly it returns will depend on his workload and contracts. Unfortunately, I can't see it touching those sort of speeds on it's return!
     
  6. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Sadly I think you are right. Maybe a raising of the steam limit to 80 mph could happen one day. But I would guess that anything really fast would, at best, be a once off very special event. At a very special price and with very special conditions attached no doubt!

    Just makes me happy that more through luck than anything else I timed 18 201's 102 mph sprint in May 2002. German loco on Austrian Railways. Initial plan was for 100 mph, but Austrian railways changed their mind and put a 75 mph limit on it. The driver had other ideas, and there was, I am told, one big row afterwards! I would add there was never a safety issue. The fast run was set up on a double track mainline, with the down line set aside for a pacing train to film us. And at some stage a helicopter as well. I think we had the entire 16 mile section effectively closed both ways while the runs took place.
     
  7. 73129

    73129 Part of the furniture

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    Hi all,

    Out of all the MN in BR days which one was the best performer on a regular basis?


    Thanks
     
  8. Dan Hill

    Dan Hill Part of the furniture

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    Wonder if he'll go for the Super Merchant that was rumoured when he bought it. Seems unlikely given the cost but it'll be good to see Shaw Savill in steam in any condition.
     
  9. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    I think it's impossible to give a definite opinion on that. So many variables, like coal quality, last boiler wash out etc, who was driving at the time, (some drivers had favourites and also locos they just didn't like!).

    For me 35003 was an incredibly free running loco. I had my fastest net time on the up ACE behind her in 1962.

    Then the two runs she was on the last up Weymouth that week in June 1967. 106 mph the night I was on the footplate, 105 mph two nights later when I was in the train. The "Chapman" run in April 1967, when she set what I believe is UK steam loco history by reaching 100 mph 3 times on a normal service train during one start to stop section. Albeit with two of the 100s separated by a 99.

    Then 98 mph on near level track with a normal load on an up Bournemouth 2 hour express. Plus an astonishing run on the 11.30 semi fast ex Waterloo to Bomo in April 1967 with the late Reubens Hendicott driving and Fireman Macquade. Just 7 cars but a whole series of astonishingly fast start to stop sections. 95 mph max for the run.

    35028 , (103 mph on level track with an up 2 hour express), and 35012, (76 mph over Roundwood summit and still accelerating), on the up Bomo Belle both reached or got as near as dammit to 3,000 ihp: the highest ever for a MN.

    35005 and some wonderful runs to Basingstoke. 105 mph down Roundwood behind Gordon Hooper.

    As my memory recalls more and more wonderful runs behind these magnificent steam locomotives I guess I could say that any of them could turn a superb performance in the hands of a crew who threw the SR timetable out of the cab and just went for it! As so many of them did in the last years of steam operation on the SR.
     
  10. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

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    And all that with 6'2" wheels and short piston travel.
     
  11. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    Yes. I just don't know what made them such free running machines. Maybe one of our resident engineers can shed some light. The smaller drivers would certainly have helped their incredible acceleration and hill climbing abilities. But you would have thought they would have run out of speed quite early. But no, my own view is that if Fred Burridge had really let 35003 go that night in June 1967 he could have got very close to the post war steam speed record. (Almost certainly held by German 18 201 on test at circa 114 mph: but with 7 ft 6 inch drivers you would expect that loco to be able to go fast!).

    That night on the footplate of 35003 it was so smooth and untroubled. About the only thing the fireman did after leaving Basinsgtoke was to wander across to the driver's side and take a long hard look at where the speedo needle was! A memory that I will take into the next life with me. Yet it was a knackered loco with a loud big end knock! I know it was a light weight train, but ¾ throttle and 20% cut off was not working it hard. It clearly had large amounts of power and speed in reserve.

    Much underrated locos, but the class in the UK that probably holds the record for the most number of individual 90 mph runs ever achieved. (Due a lot to the switchback nature of the Western part of ACE route where many drivers used downhill speed to avoid too much hard work for the firemen on the hills, and of course that very long swan song they had, mainly 1964 - 1967, which the other really fast UK steam locos never really had.).

    We had the ridiculous situation of the 35023, (nickname "The Pram"), run to Salisbury where a 78 minute schedule was requested. In October 1966 a couple of years after the ACE and the 80 minute timing ended. That was granted but because it was such a fast timing, (LOL!), it was limited to 8 cars! It did the run in just over 71 minutes net, with the only real power output climbing from 65 at Basingstoke to 71 at Worting and 79 at Oakley. It went over Grateley at 83 mph, (after 102 at Andover), on less than full throttle and with 25%. I didn't go on that run! Must have preferred the days of a MN getting to Salisbury in just over 72 minutes net with 12 cars! 8 car limit indeed, a bloody insult.

    Going on a bit. Sorry. But they were locos that lit up my life.
     
    green five likes this.
  12. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Bryan: I asked the "super Merchant" question a few weeks ago on another forum, and Ian (R) replied saying that the intention at present was to restore the loco into "standard" rebuilt condition, --no pun intended. I recall the so-called "super Merchant" project mainly involved a larger tender.
    As others have mentioned though, it is a project to fit in round his commercial work. At least it is underway.

    46118
     
  13. KentYeti

    KentYeti Guest

    A larger tender would always help these days. But could of course make using the turntable at Yeovil Jctn, for instance a bit of a problem.

    Checking back on my notes I see in that July 1964 week I had two more runs with 35009. The down ACE on the 22nd with the Fred Hoare & Peter Allen combination on the footplate. Lost over 4 minutes on schedule due to being slowed by signals to cross over to the local line at Hampton Court Junction, and then the same again at Woking to resume running on the fast line. Plus a very long 20 mph tsr after Grateley. But typically good running in between the checks. 88 mph through Andover and a net time of almost 7 minutes inside schedule to Salisbury.

    She must have been on the up ACE the next day, the 23rd July, which I rather stupidly didn't wait at Salisbury for! The down ACE had been another superb run with Fred and Peter, plus 35022. Over 90 mph though Andover. Instead I must have had a few words with Fred at the platform end, and then caught unrebuilt 34107 with 13 cars on the 10.30 Exeter. A nondescript run that lost time unchecked from Andover to Woking! But I caught up with 35009 later that day on her return working after the up ACE, the 19.00 to Exeter. Messrs Hill and Bacon along with Shaw Savill again showed some contempt for the 69 minute schedule to Andover, arriving more than 3 early after a signal check in the London suburbs.

    My only other run with Shaw Savill was in September 1963 on an up Bournemouth 2 hour express. Net time 4 minutes inside schedule up from Southampton. The train was a Bournemouth crew turn, and I obviously got one of several top link drivers at that depot who wouldn't put themselves out much to regain lots of lost time!
     
  14. Bulleid Pacific

    Bulleid Pacific Part of the furniture

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    And to think that they were originally classified as 'mixed traffic' for administrative purposes during the war! I'm sure Bulleid could sense change in the air even as early as 1941, and he wanted to get his ideas out there before it was too late.
     
  15. 46118

    46118 Part of the furniture

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    Forgive me for just straying a little off-topic, but I recently purchased a copy of "Master Builders of Steam" by H A V Bulleid, published by Ian Allen in 1963.
    This well-written book gives a detailed insight into Bulleid's railway career, including the considerable work he did alongside Sir Nigel Gresley in GNR/LNER days.
    This book also brings home to you how much our great engine builders were influenced by their early careers, ie Bulleid on the GN, Stanier at Swindon, and so-on.
    If you see a copy languishing on a secondhand bookstand next time you visit your favourite line, buy it! ( the book....!)
     
  16. nickt

    nickt Member

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    yes, an excellent book, and plenty of copies available from on-line stores:

    http://ukbookworld.com/cgi-bin/sear...r+Builders+of+Steam&s_i_author=&s_i_keywords=

    (for some reason the full URL is truncated - just enter the title when you follow the link.)
     
  17. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    I think that the rebuilt design in particular made them free running and steaming machines but you had to know how to drive them. I recall the run with Merchant 26 from Newcastle to York in October 1966 when I gather that the NE crew were disappointed to only get 90 out of her near Thirsk. But it seems they had her notched right back at 15% like an A4. Nevertheless 83.5 min for the 80 miles given the slow section out to Ferryhill plus a TSR wasn't bad.
     
  18. Mookie 6100

    Mookie 6100 New Member

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    Hello, has there been any more developments on Shaw Savill, since the last post? It's still up for sale on the Ian Riley website, but it was mentioned that because no one is interested in purchasing it, Ian Riley was going to do it up instead.

    Kind regards,

    Mookie
     
  19. philw2

    philw2 Member

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    Hi Mookie,

    Shaw Savill is too close to Holland-America Line and Port Line which are being 'restored to mainline condition'. I am worried that 35009 is being cannibalised so that the best parts are incorporated into the mainline locos. I hope I'm wrong and would love to hear confirmation to the contrary..
     
  20. Matt35027

    Matt35027 Well-Known Member

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    I doubt Ian Riley would be stripping his own loco to use the parts on clients locomotives. He doesn't strike me as the type who would make a restoration of 35009 harder and more expensive than it needs to be. Whether it is him or a new owner that goes ahead with the restoration.
     

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