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FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. Rbridge100

    Rbridge100 New Member

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    It depends on your definition of 'new build'. My own, admittedly crude, definition is "anything created, with new components and/or otherwise, with the express intention of a new form and/or identity". This encompasses Earl of Merioneth and River Mite, Didcot's GWR recreations (which have large proportions of re-used components) and R&ER's Northern Rock of 1976, which I believe was the first brand new steam locomotive built for preserved railway use in the UK.

    I'd say FR's (back on topic!) Taliesin of 1999 just about qualifies because the modifications made gave it a 'new form' (Not to mention that everything that makes it a steam engine was brand new! You can see the flaws in my definition of 'new build' coming through).

    Speaking of those modifications to Taliesin, does anyone have a verdict on the performance of David Lloyd George on its new bogies?

    Jon Bridgwater
     
  2. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Calling Taliesin a rebuild, because it contains a second-hand reversing lever from a long scrapped loco, is just romantic fiction. Earl I suppose might have qualified as a major rebuild of LT if all the replaced components had been thrown away but LT still exists in its own right (on bogies from other scrapped Fairlies). Therefore both Tal and Earl must be new-builds.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
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  3. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Since all locomotive components are interchangeable and replaceable I think it is true to say that the identity of a locomotive lies only within its 'Mojo' so you can only really judge case by case whether something is original/new-build/replica/rebuild/restoration/fake/world of leather etc. This also applies to the question of whether a new-build locomotive is 'preserved' or not. Time will tell. And 'preservation' is not necessarily for ever. Many supposedly preserved historic items of rolling stock have been scrapped in recent years. At least one new-build steam loco, owned by a museum, has also been scrapped - see the Flour Mill website if you can't guess which one (they built another new loco to replace it).

    A freelance model is still a model since it represents a generic or abstract from the real thing.

    West Coast's business model certainly includes leisure travel but the majority of this is for transportation i.e. people travelling from one place to another in order to visit the other place. People travelling on (or looking at) trains for the sake of it is only a marginal part of their business. The opposite is true in the heritage & leisure sector. But I agree there are no neat pigeon holes.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
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  4. Rbridge100

    Rbridge100 New Member

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    Exactly. My point is that, because of the design changes, Taliesin is a new-build rather than a straightforward replica, just as David Lloyd George (or better still, Tornado) is not a replica of any particular loco. I agree that re-use of components does not constitute a rebuild of the original.

    True, though there are a fair few of those around. Henry Ford is supposed to have had one.


    Jon Bridgwater
     
  5. meeee

    meeee Member

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    It performs very well but then it always has. It's easy to fire being light on coal and water. Which is lucky because the bunkers are tiny. The brick arch is higher up so it is easier to get coal into the front corners. The lack of clanking from the motion when compared to the other two is noticeable. It is certainly a quality job, the copper pipe work and taller chimneys have improved the aesthetics no end. No doubt the addition of sanders will pay off come the autumn as well. The only let down are the twin port regulators being replaced with incredibly stiff ball valves.

    The main reason for replacing the slide valves is to reduce wear on the valves and valve gear rather than improve performance. DLG and Taliesin with their higher superheat and boiler pressures have always suffered in this respect.

    Tim
     
  6. Anthony Coulls

    Anthony Coulls Well-Known Member

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    The boiler assembly is new, the cylinders, wheels, motion, frame (such as it is) tender etc is all from the 1979 replica
     
  7. jtx

    jtx Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Major exercise in pedantry. Most impressive. While we're in the zone, please note: nothing "pre-exists," is "pre-planned," "pre-prepared," or "pre-ordered." It exists, is planned, prepared, or ordered. You can't do a thing before you do it.
     
  8. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    i thought Mr Cooper's analysis very interesting and perceptive. many thanks also to Roger for providing the links to the fascinating 'musical box' articles.

    anyway a bit more back on topic 2 questions....

    1. have any conclusions yet been drawn from DLG's conversion to monobloc piston valves?

    2. have any interesting conclusions or findings been discovered so far with Welsh Pony's dismantling?

    cheers,
    julian
     
  9. patrickalanbooth

    patrickalanbooth New Member

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    May i add that for Ffestiniog locos they are not new builds as DLG's original bogeys were made of older bits and the same for the Earl. Plus the Tal and Lye were rebuilt using fragments of the original locomotives so not all new build. I would actually say that these locos are legitimate builds as the original fr company didn't finish so they are technically further orders to fill then gaps in motive power. Rather than one of these wasn't saved well lets build a new one and make money later.
    To answer jma1009: look on youtube on the festshop man channel you can see the dismantling for yourself in the time lapse video and the weekend video and the most interesting thing was the existence of wood boiler cladding and the condition of the various bits a pieces.
    many thanks
    Patrick
     
  10. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    hi patrick,
    i watched the clip but dont think wooden lagging is that spectacular. i wondered if anything more significant has been discovered so far re WELSH PONY. i noticed various dates on parts of 1915 and 1923 on the FRS site pics from last bank hol's dismantling. PRINCE has (apparently) LITTLE GIANT's weighshaft (though put on the wrong way round initially), and the specatcle glass frames of WELSH PONY (anything else?). LINDA also has some bits off LITTLE GIANT... it is these sorts of details i would be very interested to hear about re WELSH PONY.
    cheers,
    julian
     
  11. Eagle1711

    Eagle1711 Well-Known Member

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    According to... http://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Little_Giant

    There is also part of the buffer beam that is on Moelwyn front sub structure.

    I guess you could also say that Mountaineer has a part of the original Mountaineer (The Bell).

    According to http://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/James_Spooner_(Locomotive)

    The wheels have survived to the present day. They were used under Merddin Emrys from 1961 to 1984, and are currently under Livingston Thompson at the NRM.

    Also according to http://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Little_Wonder

    Parts of the original loco were subsequently used on Little Giant, Palmerston and Prince. The only part known to survive, to this day, is the bell .

    Also http://www.festipedia.org.uk/wiki/Taliesin

    Of the original locomotive, the reversing lever has survived to be used again, and the eccentrics were put onto Linda in the 1960s
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2014
  12. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Although bells exist for Mountaineer and Little Wonder, there is no evidence to suggest they were ever carried by either loco. So it is a bit of a stretch to say they are surviving parts.

    Tim
     
  13. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

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    My my. In the real world, chaps, the nice neat little compartments that accountants, train-spotters, tax collectors and the like choose to put things in don't really exist, or at best they have very grey edges. Things are what they are, and sometimes they are several things at once.
     
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  14. patrickalanbooth

    patrickalanbooth New Member

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    There is some photos showing that the early FR locos did carry bells so they are the genuine articals. But as i have said before the term new build does not apply to the FR as the original company is still the same one since 1832 so it effectively never ended and all locomotive built in the preservation era were built due to demand not just out of ooh that looks nice lets build it. At the moment 2 double engines are used in the summer and having 3 allows one to released for maintenance and it reduces mileage. Lyd was to be used on the WHR but has since replaced Mountaineer. From first hand experience its is better to view the FR and WHR as a working railway rather than a heritage one as it has had to develop and adapt to the ever changing demands placed upon it.
    many thanks
    Patrick
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  15. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    thanks danny and tim for your replies. i was already a follower of the festipedia site.

    incidentally there is a very interesting photo of the crane behind the old boston lodge loco shed pre WW2 (apologies for not supplying the link) indicating something about the damage caused to Welsh pony's tender (and incidentally damage to Taliesin not followed up on the blurb to the pic).

    i find it fascinating that parts of long scrapped locos are still in use such as Little Giant's weighshaft, the original Taliesin eccentrics, and the wheelsets from the bogie off Moel Tryfan. apparently the rods off Little Giant are still held as spares. what else still lurks in the stores at Boston Lodge of historical interest?

    cheers,
    julian
     
  16. AndrewT

    AndrewT Member

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    What new company? The Festiniog Railway Company was founded by Act of Parliament in 1832 and is still going strong as the world's oldest independent railway company still in operation (as certified by the Guinness Book of World Records).
     
  17. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Although the original company remains it is now controlled by a charity (Ff&WHR Trust). The railway would not have survived without voluntary support so in that sense it is a heritage railway.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2014
  18. Eagle1711

    Eagle1711 Well-Known Member

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    Im sure some people have seen this picture before but...

    Heres a picture from 1990 showing all thats left of Moel Tryfan and Baldwin 590.

    "Historic Welsh Highland Railway locomotive relics at Gelerts Farm Works in 1990. They inclide a tank from Baldwin 590 and a bogie frame, air reservoir and tank plate from Moel Tryfan." Copyright R~P~M (FlickR)

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Eagle1711

    Eagle1711 Well-Known Member

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    Would it be an idea for the admin/mods to maybe seperate this history part into a seperate thread to keep the news area of the FR/WHR seperate?
     
  20. patrickalanbooth

    patrickalanbooth New Member

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    I think some new, news will be on here tomorrow :) this is just some nice conversation to keep ourselfs busy in the mean time ;)
    thanks
    Patrick
     

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