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FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    A propos of nothing whatever, who does Lyd belong to? Is she FR Company, private, FR Trust...?
     
  2. Poolbrook

    Poolbrook New Member Friend

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    Which reminds me that I don't recall seeing Lyd or Princess at last weekend's gala. Did I go around with my eyes closed?
     
  3. Nexuas

    Nexuas Well-Known Member

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    Lyd and Britomart were tucked up in the old loco shed when we parked K1 outside late on Monday afternoon:D
     
  4. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Why Princess ? only so much you can do with a static exhibit, or did you mean Palmerston ?.
     
  5. Poolbrook

    Poolbrook New Member Friend

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    No I did mean Princess. Mountaineer played a very welcome static role.
     
  6. ykin01

    ykin01 Member

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    Out of interest how long is 'Fiji' staying at FR/WHR?
     
  7. Nexuas

    Nexuas Well-Known Member

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  8. patrickalanbooth

    patrickalanbooth New Member

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    It all depends on man power as to get princess to blodge you need a loco crew and also with running lyd you also need a crew so that's why lyd wasn't running.
    Ideally there needs to be a place to store the static engines (princess and LT) on public view on the FR so they can be wheeled out for special events.
    many thanks
    Patrick
     
  9. admin

    admin Founder Administrator

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    We are in the local area to the FFESTINIOG Railway, and hope to visit tomorrow on the 13th May.

    Will be our first ride on the line, and will be uploading pictures directly to the forum from the mobile phone app. (If I have got signal)

    See you there!
     
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  10. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Was Earl the first new build steam loco of the preservation era in the UK?
     
  11. Nick Gough

    Nick Gough Well-Known Member

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    River Mite?
     
  12. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    I think your first task before being able to answer this would be to define what you mean by "the preservation era".

    If this is taken as when a group of enthusiasts took over and started running the Talyllyn as 'the first preserved railway', then the era began in 1951. This means British Railways were amoungst the first to do new build steam locos in the preservation era, seeing as their last wasn't until nine years later in 1960. If you decide this was a little too early to be 'the era', then I believe the last 'new build' loco out of Leeds was November 1971 - was that the first of the preservation era, or last of the pre-preservation era? I understand work on "The Earl of Merioneth" began in 1972, so less than a year later. When exactly did 'the era' begin if you decide the one is ineligible, yet the other isn't?

    What criteria are you using for a loco to be eligible? The A1 Trust's very effective media and marketing machine were only too happy to promote the idea that "Tornado" was the first steam loco built in the UK for xx number of years. The caveat of it being the first standard gauge loco to be built was/is often overlooked or buried in the small print, especially once the press release reaches main stream media outlets. We all know that numerous new narrow gauge locos have been built. ....but your original question only said "steam loco". There are hundreds of model engineers who have been churning out fully functional steam locos every year for decades, whether that's 16mm scale, 2-1/4", 3-1/2", 5" or 7-1/4" gauge. If you wish to be snooty and disregard those, then where are you drawing the line for locos? 10-1/4", 15", 18" ?

    Really you need to establish some criteria before being able to answer your question.
     
  13. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    Eras can overlap, you know. It is clear that the modern UK preservation era began in 1951 since railway preservation activity before that date was on a very small scale whereas the Talyllyn was the start of something bigger. The considerable number of BR and industrial steam locos built after that date are easily disregarded for the purposes of this question because they were obviously not built for preservation use. Similarly it is not snooty to disregard working models since, by definition, models are not intended to be regarded as real locomotives otherwise they wouldn't be called models.
     
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  14. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    If those are the criteria against which the question is asked, then fair enough - but the original question didn't stipulate 'new build steam loco for use on a preserved railway', just 'new build steam loco of the preservation era' - A 'era' is a time span, not an intended use.

    Is a 1960s built class 37 diesel on the mainline a 'preserved heritage' locomotive, or a working tool that happens to be old? What about a class 37 that was sold by its original operating company and now resides at a 'preserved railway'? ...so how about a class 37 that was sold, went to a preserved railway, was sold again and is now seen hauling freight on the mainline again? - "preserved", or just happens to be old and still being used? I suspect how you define it would vary, and different people would consider it differently.

    What's the difference between a loco built in 1985 to haul stone in a quarry, and a loco built in 1985 to haul passengers on a privately owned railway? Surely it doesn't matter whether the motive power is diesel, petrol or steam.


    The original poster didn't mention anything about size, and neither did I use the words "working models" - that is your phrase. I just said fully functioning steam locos in a variety of small gauges. "model engineers" as hobbiests create artefacts of all sizes in their garden sheds - right up to 'full size', so don't be misled by a title. Whilst it might be accepted that 16mm scale is 'a model', those above that can easily haul adults around and be put to commercial work. There are commercial railways run at 7-1/4" gauge that pull passengers around parks using locos and rolling stock that have been purchased rather than home built, and some not necessarily relying on volunteer labour to do it either. Are you suggesting those are men (and women) playing trains with toys giving rides, yet what they're doing is in some way different to what others do in larger gauges?

    The Romney Hythe and Dumchurch railway is 15" gauge - are these "models" as well? The Fairbourne was 15" up until the 1980's and then rebuilt to 12-1/4" - are those locos "models"? A number were built in the 1970's ('Sherpa' 1979, 'Yeo', 1978). Does it matter that they look like smaller versions of other engines, or are they entitled to be viewed as originals in their own right? Industrial locomotive manufacturers would produce essentially the same loco in different sizes as well... How about the old Hilton Valley Railway at 10-1/4" gauge.

    Whilst I appreciate they haven't built their own locomotives, are companies such as the Llanberis Lake Railway, a "preserved" railway? It operates along an old railway formation, but nothing about it is the same as the railway that originally ran there - it uses a different gauge, has a totally new track layout and buildings, and uses a paid staff to run a commercial tourist railway - there's nothing 'preserved' about it, apart from using old locomotives (which themselves are different to the originals). How about the Vale Of Rheidol? A railway that ultimately served the lucrative tourist market and concentrated on that in the face of diminishing freight revenue decades before the 1950's, and has also never 'closed', having been sold as an ongoing company a number of times and run using a paid workforce. A 'preserved' railway, or one that just so happens to use steam haulage and old rolling stock?

    As I understand it, even the Ffestiniog itself has never actually been 'closed', then sold to others to run. Whilst services stopped and decay set in, the original railway company was never wound up, so the early enthusiasts bought a controlling interest in the pre-existing company to allow them to carry out maintenance and start running trains again. So is the Ffestiniog a 'preserved' railway, or an original independent private railway company dating from the 19th century that continues to operate today, albeit now concentrating on making money giving tourists a ride to the end and back rather than carrying stone. I've read Ffestiniog advocates state the case for both versions!


    I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying Miff, but as originally phrased the question is far too general to achieve a worthwhile answer. It needs more definition to establish what is actually being asked:

    Must the 'new build loco' be used for a 'preserved railway' rather than a 'commercial' railway?

    ...if so, how are you going to define a 'preserved' railway and what is a 'commercial' one? (what are VofR, Llanberis Lake, Snowdon etc. Even the Welsh Highland - is that 'preserved', or a totally new railway that happens to follow the route of an old one, using locos and rolling stock that are nothing like the originals)

    ...if you're disregarding 'models', then at what size are you going to define models start and anything larger isn't a model? - if you state a model can't do 'real work', then that must put it below 3-1/2" gauge, seeing as some societies take a healthy income giving people train rides behind 3-1/2" and 5" gauge locomotives!

    All I'm trying to highlight is that more clarity in the question is needed, but trying to establish that clarity isn't necessarily easy. It's seen elsewhere on this forum when someone asks a question, then immediately takes the hump when people reply with answers that are narrow gauge railways/locos. Because the original poster was only interested in 'standard gauge' railways they didn't for one moment consider anything other than that when they posed their question, so didn't make it clear they only wanted standard gauge answers because they're not interested in anything smaller. Likewise there are those interested in 'narrow gauge' who arbitrarily decide anything less than 2ft gauge (or at least a nominal slate industry 2ft) isn't worthy of their interest or attentions either, then sulk if they ask a question and get answers which are outside their sphere of interest. By stating that models aren't 'real locomotives' you simply reveal your own prejudices and area of interest (or rather, lack of interest), which is fair enough - it just needs to be made clear what the constraints are when asking a very open ended question.
     
    Last edited: May 14, 2014
  15. andrewshimmin

    andrewshimmin Well-Known Member

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    Quite so.

    I meant above 15" really (i.e. for a "public" railway). Although a few 15" gauge lines are more narrow gauge rather than miniature (like RER), so River Mite is a good call. But I think we could agree that EoM represents a different category than River Mite.

    So (slightly fuzzy categories) are we saying:
    - First new loco for "preserved" railway: River Mite (if we accept 15" gauge)
    - First new loco for "preserved" railway: Earl of Merioneth ("public carrier" size railways, i.e. you can stand up!)

    If so (and this was where I was coming from) then surely EoM is a very historic loco in her own right, and hence deserves to be considered as such? I mean e.g. as regards any "traditionalising" or otherwise.
    But I don't mean to start some more slightly pointless controversy, how about we go back to FR/WHR/WHHR news...
     
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  16. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    Just to muddy the waters further, River Mite used the powered tender chassis from River Esk, didn't it? So is it a rebuild or a new build!?
     
  17. ragl

    ragl Well-Known Member

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    Yawn!!!
     
  18. Steve B

    Steve B Well-Known Member

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    And Earl of Meirionnydd used existing power bogies as well - ho hum:)

    Steve B
     
  19. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    It was fairly clear from the context of this thread that the question was about new-build preserved locomotives. Therefore it is logical to assume that non-preserved locomotives built during the preservation era may be disregarded. If one person’s definition of preserved is different from another’s this may be a good thing in an informal forum if it leads to a more interesting discussion. Is that not worthwhile?

    At the risk of tedium for other readers some other comments which sprung to mind after reading your very long post are below:

    Definitions can overlap as well as eras, you know. A class 37 might be both a heritage item and a working tool at the same time. The important difference between your two 1985 locos is the purposes for which they were respectively built. You mention prejudices for some reason but you are wrong if you assume I have no interest in modelling. A model, by definition, is a representation of something else – that is the sense in which it cannot be the real thing. Many of the finest models are designed to be non-working but a working model is not fully functioning, no matter how well it works, unless it can deliver the same performance as the prototype – in which case it is not really a model. If Model Engineers sometimes create ‘full size’ working things then perhaps we are ‘engineering’, not ‘modelling’ when we do that. Regardless of the size or gauge there are obvious distinctions between railways used primarily as transportation systems and railways used primarily for heritage and leisure purposes (Preserved or not? You decide). Again there are overlaps, such as main line excursions using preserved locos, but it is fairly easy to tell which sector each railway primarily belongs to. The Ffestiniog and Welsh Highland Railways (back on topic!) are clearly in the heritage and leisure market nowadays.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2014
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  20. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    I suppose that in itself could open the interesting concept that if something is a "new build", then how can it also be "preserved"?! Obviously it can run on a preserved railway, but how can something that is brand new be 'preserved'? Obviously in practice it's only really a topic of academic discussion.

    ...which incidentally returning to the original question - as we were reminded, Earl Of Merioneth reused existing power bogies. Whilst I'm not personally inclined to term something a 'restoration' on the basis of just reusing a reversing lever, or the odd bracket with everything else brand new. The power bogies are a pretty large and fundamental part of the loco.

    In a more conventional design of loco I think it would be stretching it to say something was a 'new build' by taking an existing complete set of running gear, consisting of frames, cylinders, motion, axles & wheels, then placing a new boiler and plate work on top. Personally I'd consider it perhaps 'heavily modified'. That's not intended to denigrate what was involved with EofM, and due to the nature of the double Fairlies the power bogies are much more of a drop in/out component than the chassis of a standard loco is! A 'new build' diesel loco for instance is likely to use an off-the-shelf diesel engine without anyone questioning it - so should a steam loco be viewed any different?


    That is an interesting definition, but as ever in this world nothing is plainly black & white. Whilst a scaled down version of a larger gauge loco might thus be generally seen as a model, that means a freelance design to the same gauge is no longer a model, seeing as it is not a representation of anything else. It is thus a full size engine (albeit a small one). It IS the prototype, therefore its performance is fully up to spec., so by your definition it is fully functioning.

    Once again, in practice you can plonk a Polly, a Sweet Pea and a Pansy next to each other and see that one is a 'model' of a GWR pannier tank, one is a freelance design based loosely on a Bagnall, and one is a total freelance based on nothing (although perhaps reminiscent of Trumpton!). Now any reasonable person would say they're all models, but from the definition above, the "Polly" is a not representation of anything else, so isn't a scaled down version and not 'a model' - it is full size! ...but once again, is it preserved? Or does that depend on how old it is?


    Which raises the question of whether West Coast Railway's locomotives and rolling stock are 'preserved' or not? Their charter passenger business is clearly based around leisure, but they also do contract operational loco movement type work, and I suspect will quote to pull anything or drive anything you might want moved. Is an observation car built in 1892 that is still owned and operated by a main line train operating company on a commercial basis 'preserved' or not?

    As ever, I don't necessarily disagree with your statements and definitions - but they do open up interesting areas for discussion which don't necessarily fit into neat pidgeon holes.
     

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