If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Swanage Railway developments

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by free2grice, Dec 9, 2012.

  1. buzby2

    buzby2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,624
    Likes Received:
    534
    Location:
    Swanage
    It is 'rumoured' that Beeching said the Swanage Branch lost money in Winter but the bus service was insufficient. He went on to say that the Branch made lots of money in the Summer so, on balance, the Swanage Branch would not be on his list for closure. Whether this is true I know not.
     
  2. buzby2

    buzby2 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2009
    Messages:
    1,624
    Likes Received:
    534
    Location:
    Swanage
    Reality check ...
    A train every 15 minutes - the mind boggles! It's not a London Overground metro service that's being considered as there isn't the population to justify it nor could the branch cope with such a frequency. Anyway, Wilts & Dorset bus services between Poole & Swanage only manage to be half-hourly during the Summer peak to cope with additional tourists but that's with a County Council subsidy.
    As for being "rammed" - I think not in reality. I'd love to know how many commuters you think there are in Swanage and Corfe Castle that want to travel at fixed times.
    The "real railway filling quiet hours and weekends" point - the busiest days at Swanage are weekends! Dovetailing main line trains into the 40 minute heritage service has exercised many minds over the past few months and years. I'm not sure the cogitations aren't still going on.
     
  3. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    12
    I admit my contribution was somewhat TIC but the road congestion towards the bakers Arms roundabout I mentioned certainly was not fantasy and gave rise a few years ago to a highly damaging bypass proposal. This was fought off but there is no doubt in my mind that, had the Swanage branch not been closed, it would not now be closed. This brings one to the following consideration -how much weight is given to the two functions - environmentally responsible transport and heritage / theme park type activity? The Swanage Railway does a good job as a P and R into Swanage, so it deserves it's environmental place, but are we really saying that from Monday to Friday, a few commuter trains could not run between 0700 to 0900 into the Poole /Bournemouth conurbation and back at 1600 - 1900?

    I suppose a survey of travellers on the road to Wareham from Swanage at those times could reveal the potential demand. It would not surprise me if Dorset CC does not have that info but it might need updating now..
     
  4. Steve1015

    Steve1015 Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    902
    Likes Received:
    268
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There is already a healthy service into Poole / Bournemouth in the mornings and evening.
    If you were to run from swanage into Poole/Bournemouth what market are you trying to attract?. Most people in Swanage who work in Poole and Bournemouth go via the ferry....so I dont think there is much of a market, if any, for an additional commuter service that would pay....
     
  5. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    12
    Fair enough Steve. I just point out that to cross the ferry, you have to use car, shanks, or cycle. last two OK, first not OK.

    But an O/D survey of travel patterns would help inform the issue.
     
  6. John2

    John2 Member

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    202
    Likes Received:
    59
    The Wilts and Dorset 50 Swanage-Bournmouth service uses the ferry.

    John
     
  7. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I had a relative who lived in Swanage for many years.

    She pointed out that whilst Swanage station was conveniently situated for the town it served, Wareham station most definitely was not and anyone going to shop in the latter town used the bus for this very reason. Poole could be reached by bus over the chain ferry. The only advantage possessed by the Swanage branch lay in journeys to Weymouth, London or possibly Bournemouth.

    Whenever local passenger services crop up in relation to tourist railways one senses puddings being over-egged!

    PH
     
  8. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,323
    Likes Received:
    2,397
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Westcountry
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    "Whenever local passenger services crop up in relation to tourist railways one senses puddings being over-egged!"

    There is always the danger that we, as enthusiasts, will give the train preference as a means of transport and will tolerate a degree of inconvenience that the general public these days won't. However, Swanage is surely important enough to be restored to the national network?
     
  9. Steve1015

    Steve1015 Member

    Joined:
    May 26, 2011
    Messages:
    902
    Likes Received:
    268
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes even if just for the summer months etc.
    You just have to see the state of the roads in the area to see that there is a very good chance that it would be feasible
     
  10. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,323
    Likes Received:
    2,397
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Westcountry
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    And the holiday season tends to be longer these days than it was 40 years ago. I recall summer timetables running between mid June and early September, but these days people (apart from families with children at school) often take holidays in May or October.
     
  11. HowardGWR

    HowardGWR New Member

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2011
    Messages:
    101
    Likes Received:
    12
    Yes, silly of me to forget (it was a typo essentially that I forgot to correct and deleted) the bus across to Sandbanks, especially as we plan exactly that journey myself next summer. It's not the quickest way to the centre of Poole, let alone Bournemouth and further east but is definitely environmentally 'OK' in my list. I think the way to look at it is like this, in fact how I began, namely, if the Swanage branch had not been closed, do we honestly think it now would be? This is a Preservation discussion list and I think the challenge is for enthusiasts to recognise that there is a potential conflict between reinstating and extending sustainable transport methods and the aims of the preservationists.
     
  12. Anorak

    Anorak New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    There are two very important points here.

    Firstly to answer the question posed, if the branch had not been closed would it be today? The answer is (IMHO) almost certainly no. My reasons being several fold. With the railway still in place the roads and buses would probably not have developed to the extent that they have. The town is bigger now than it was in 1972 and in the current 'green' climate, the lobby that opposed the closure then, would be bigger now and be more likely to be successful because rail transport is increasingly viewed as the future not the past.

    But it’s a moot point because IT WAS CLOSED. The Roads and Buses and the ferry DID develop. People got used to using other means of transport. 40 years of development without the railway has left the Purbecks looking different to how it would have been with the railway. The world has moved on! Just because we wouldn't close it now is not a strong business case for reopening it.

    It’s as well for the preservation movement that it did close because otherwise we wouldn't have the heritage railway we have today. It would probably be a single track through out as it was in 72, maybe with 3rd rail or perhaps SWT modern DEMUs. And here in lies the second important point from HowardGWRs post.

    Swanage runs an extremely intensive service. Perhaps one of the most, if not THE most, intensive of any heritage railway. Particularly in the summer. On many days all paths on the line are full! It’s difficult to even fit a simple shunt in without disrupting the timetable. To run a regular normal (modern) local passenger service through the middle of this would be impossible without striping a big piece out of the heritage operation.

    So that's no more Dining trains or driver experience. Santa specials will have to be scaled back. Forget any more galas. Even normal 2 train running is going to have to be scaled back to guarantee that the local passenger service can keep time (which will be sacrosanct) and make its main line slots without causing expensive delays on the national network. And when there are delays on the national network that causes delays to the local passenger service, these will ripple down to the heritage timetable. All this will without doubt impact profitability and the appeal to enthusiasts and volunteers.

    To compound the impact to the heritage operation there is the inevitable threat to its main income which is the park and ride aspect that has served it so well over the years. Will the local passenger service be able to charge the same price as the heritage service? I think not! Will people who would otherwise have traveled on the heritage service travel instead on the cheaper local passenger service and still experience the period stations and see steam engines? I think so! Who will be operating the local passenger service is still to be decided but whoever it is, an impact to the heritage income is inevitable.

    It’s been a long held goal of the original Swanage Railway founders to reinstate the normal passenger service to Wareham that has gathered unstoppable momentum over 40 years. It’s unfortunate for the preservationists that have come to the line for their own reasons and have come to regard it as a heritage railway that the goal is about to be realized, because these two worlds that have happily coexisted for years are about to collide.

    There are going to be winners and losers for sure.

    The next few years are going to be very interesting for Swanage. I’m sure all here on NatPres want the best for the Heritage Railway. Let’s just hope it doesn't come off two badly, and that worse still, the organization doesn't destroy it's self in the process.

    There are many possible futures, the one I least want to see for the line (which is still Dorset County Council owned!) is it reverting to a single track with 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] rail or modern DMUs and not a puff of steam in sight.

    Be careful what you wish for!
     
  13. twr12

    twr12 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2007
    Messages:
    1,541
    Likes Received:
    694
    Anorak

    Excellent post. Your final paragraph sums up the dilemma that Swanage Railway need to make its choice about, very soon!
     
  14. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    In order for it to be a successful "real world" transport undertaking (inter alia with a speed limit of more than 25mph and staffing costs kept within bounds) this is exactly what would have to happen. Corfe loop could be kept , provided it were equipped for automatic operation but that would be about it. Norden Park and Ride would remain but Harmans Cross? Perhaps! Certainly electrification would aid through running and reduce the need to maintain dedicated rolling stock for the service to Swanage but the capital cost would be substantial.

    However, as hinted in my previous post, the very fact of moving from a railway preservation ethos to that of a transport service means progressing from a "wouldn't it be nice" philosophy to one of hard nosed reality. My own views are that the Swanage Railway should gently push back thoughts of opening to Wareham on a regular basis to "sometime in the future". Essentially though they are what used to be called a "brass plate company", owning neither motive power nor real estate. Dorset County Council, who own the land may have different ideas which would be difficult to resist.

    PH
     
  15. Anorak

    Anorak New Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2012
    Messages:
    3
    Likes Received:
    0
    If only! Any thought or conversation on the topic of wavering from the course is taboo. There are shadowy figures pulling the strings at the top who are hell bent on this and supporters at every level of the organization. Pushing forward dominates every decision. I’m sure someone will be along to the thread shortly to put a stop to this type of talk and refute it totally with empty assurances.

    Unfortunately rational debate and the cold hard facts are hard to come by and so the rest of the railway sleepwalks to its future.

    Speaking of possible futures, the best hope for the future of the heritage railway is that an experimental trial of the service fails before Swanage Railway lose too much money on it and those backing it give up and go home and leave the railway to concentrate on its heritage operation. Perhaps extending it to Furzebrook, Blue Pool with a high days and holidays steam service to Wareham or Weymouth or Bournemouth and being a regular charter destination.

    Unfortunately people that have worked towards something for 40 years and a Council that has invested, what £1.2Million? in creating the link, are not going to just give up at the first sign of unprofitability.

    They will be back again and again with ever greater demands for compromise from the heritage operation in order to make their baby live. It will be fund this, repair that, make room for the other. The question is, will the preservationists be able to stop them before they erode the heritage operation until it’s an unremarkable shadow of what it is and what it could have been. My guess is that the preservationists will be, or are being, out flanked, out manoeuvred, out gunned and taken completely by surprise.

    At worst it will become nonviable. If the Swanage Railway Co. goes under. The railway will end up in the hands of DCC then its bye bye chuff chuff, Hello modern transport service with DCC saying 'thank you for relaying the track and restoring the stations, now of you pop'.

    Happy Christmas!
     
  16. Shaggy

    Shaggy Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,501
    Likes Received:
    2,370
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    72B
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not being involved with any of this, I can say with an element of certainty that the line will NOT get 3rd rail. The HSE hate it and I think (I may be wrong) there is a ban on expanding the 3rd rail network. Network Rail are pushing overhead 20kv electrification throughout the network and this includes the southern 3rd rail system. The chances of the branch getting netting put up? I doubt it would be viable so therefore it will have to be diesel operated.
     
  17. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,323
    Likes Received:
    2,397
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Westcountry
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Better get a good stud of push-pull class 33/1s in then. Remember how Weymouth trains were electric to Bournemouth, then a 33/1 did the honours to Weymouth and back; could be the same in future for a Waterloo- Swanage through service. A mix of recent heritage and practicality.

    More seriously, I suppose the Swanage Railway must balance its founding ideal of a reopened branch for regular traffic, with the present successful heritage operation. It will have to look for whatever subsidies might be available for a regular diesel service; pretty well all branch lines on the network get subsidies, so why shouldn't a reopened Wareham to Swanage branch? Originally, the aim was to reopen the branch as a regular service, and steam was then a means to that end, but now steam has proved so successful that it may for many people be the end in itself.

    Take a look at the history of the West Somerset Railway for a similar dilemma.
     
  18. oliversbest

    oliversbest Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2011
    Messages:
    814
    Likes Received:
    121
    Anyone tried travelling to Swanage by public transport with luggage. Its hard work for the fit and darn near impossible for seniors except for one National
    Express coach. exiles like myself don't relish the thought of driving on unfamiliar and, according to all reports, very overcrowded roads. Yes, I'm an original member from the 70's and Im happy about most aspects of our Railway which i believe is strong enough to accommodate a scheduled service. If we don't try it
    we will never know and it could be a harbinger of a new era . The Heritage operation will get great publicity out of this and it opens up some very good possibilities, for instance the Dartmouth railway has or had a triangular ticket. Bus,Train and Boat starting at any point. Any reason why a Poole,Wareham, Swanage Sandbanks could not be attempted. I love steam trains but joe public has a very different view from enthusiasts, they will be judging this on the ability of the Heritage movement to operate in a modern environment. I am certain that it can
     
  19. paulhitch

    paulhitch Guest

    I hope you are right but please see the various postings by "Anorak".
     
  20. Luke Bridges

    Luke Bridges New Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2011
    Messages:
    63
    Likes Received:
    10
    Is there any reason why capacity couldnt be increased with a new loop somewhere (herston halt ?) and the current heritage operation continues while the wareham service slots around the heritage service while the steam is sitting at one of the stations, then run into the bay at swanage ?
     

Share This Page