Vintage vs Mk 1

What would you prefer to travel in, an restored 4 wheeler or an Mk1, many railways that have a rake of Vintage coaches must often ask themselves this question.
For my own point of view i would rather ride in an restored vintage coach than a Mk1 any day of the week , they have advantages over mk1s in that they have an air about them, where as to me a mk 1 is what i used too ride on college in , in the form of 4 cigs ,

On my own line, Commercially the Mk1s are favoured over the vintage rake because you can get a trolley through the train and make extra income from catering and guide book sales, where as its thought that catering on the vintage rake cant be done , so you lose that income stream , but do you, i have often wondered that a hamper lunch in a compartment ,, would be an interesting veriation on the tea and sandwich offering that is normally on offer, and if pre booked could be offered to parties ,
The advantage of the vintage rake is that its lighter, so can be hauled by a smaller engine, but still has the same seating as a 5 car mk 1 set
One of the biggest problems though with running any heritage railway is that the stock is wearing out, and these days what starts out as an 18 monthly exam, very quickly turns into a full overhaul

 

For me i love going to the NNR and getting into the vintage Quad-Art Coaches.

 

The North Staffordshire Rolling Stock Restoration Trust are working on two ex NSR 4 wheel coaches for just the reasons above, to recreate a travel experience for visitors and to enable smaller locos to have some meaningful work to do.

 

Was always part of my lottery win dream to build suitable vintage set's to match the newbuild loco's I'd order.

 

Just wondering where you stand LNER and LMS coaches then.
A trolley service is possible and from talking to people, some buffet stewards prefer those buffet car to the mark 1 variety as it is better laid out.
I do like travelling on the non-mark 1 coaches on a railway, but for some passengers including myself, they can't really remember mark 1's on the mainline anyway!

 

Yes, don't forget the interwar period. There are very few railways that can readily evoke it, rolling stock wise. The best I think everyone would agree is the SVR with its GW sets and the LNER set and the unique LMS set.

Elsewhere I can only think of three other standard gauge railways that can turn out a rake of interwar carriages - the Bluebell (SR), South Devon (GW) and NYMR (LNER). Am I forgetting any?

 

A very good point, I'd take vintage stock over MK1's everytime, problem is how many lines actually have that choice ?.

There are Vintage Carriages at lines other than those you mention, but they really are the odd vehicle here and there rather than an in service rake.

 

I think that there is a place for both. My preference is always to travel in the oldest thing I can find, whether it be pre-group standard gauge stock, or the "heritage" coaches on the likes of the F&WHR as opposed to the narrow gauge equivalents of the Mk1. One of the attractions to me of railways like the Bluebell is that there is a good chance that you are able NOT to travel in a Mk1.

Having said that, though, if the train is crowded I'm never overly keen on squeezing into a victorian sized compartment with 6 or 7 strangers with no possibility of escape from the hot and tired toddler, or not being able to see out of the limited windows because I've picked a compartment of enthusiasts who think the whole purpose of the train is for them to get yet another photo of Holywell water-works, or whatever.

Which is why I prefer visiting out of season or with enough people to comfortably fill a compartment (so that I can get another photo of Holywell Water works...?)

It's good to see both types being actively restored and used. The Mark 1s are now pretty much only found in the heritage sector, and there are many who don't remember them on the commute to work so they seem ancient, and a reminder to the rest of us of days when train travel involved a bit of style, rather than the cramped plastic airline seating that we find on today's big railway, so keep them coming.

What does bother me more than what I'm travelling in, is the condition that it is in. I have travelled on many of our preserved lines over many years, and whilst some railways have always turned out clean and well cared for stock, others struggle, and it does seem to be the case that the scruffy uncared for ones are most likely to be Mk1s. There have been a couple of times when I've been in coaches that have had plywood patches nailed over holes in the floor, 2 of the 3 doors on one side locked out of use, large rust holes on the ends, and evidence of leaking roofs. The clunks and groans that emerged when they moved if they had come from my car would have made me fear the next MOT. Goodness knows what the conditions of the ones in the siding must have been like if that is what they chose to use.

I get the impression that this is changing as more railways actually restore their Mk1s, rather than just tart them up occasionally. They are not cheap coaches to rebuild or maintain, and the railways that have been able to build covered storage facilities and workshop space for their coaches must find that the investment is worth it in the long term. And that then comes back to the same old problem of too little money chasing so many needs.

To those who work hard to provide us with the means (of whatever vintage) to travel behind our beloved steam engines - thank you

Steve B

 

Would it be fair to say that some Mk1's in certain locations have basically been in service since withdrawl and purchase from BR with only a repaint and rehapolsting (brain freeze forgetting how it's spelt) of the seats ?.

No matter how well it's cared for, any item of useable rolling stock will require a major overhaul eventually due to weather corrosion over many years and inevitable wear and tear of usage, a major concern for me is, can some of the smaller lines afford such repairs/overhauls when the stock detoriates to such an extent that it has to be done ?.

I also get the impression the only Mk1's you can get now (unless your prepared to pay a silly price) are the various knackers that are either used for spares or bottom of the restoration queue, really these offer no advantage over vintage carriages that require restoring as both would need a big expediture to make operational, infact the vintage carriages may be slightly cheaper owing to a greater use of wood than steel.

The big advantage of Mk1's years ago was they could be brought in big numbers and made operationally almost instantly to start up a servicve whereas vintage stock required work which coulden't be funded without first carrying passengers, neither are readily availible now so the playing field is much more even.

To an extent I think there's too few Coaches for too many lines now, witness the likes of ex Gatwick Express Air Con Mk2's at some newer lines for example, while they make a nice match for some preserved Diesels, I'd avoid them like the plague on the basis your too isolated from the outside with no opening windows, may as well have a Class 90 upfront.

 

RE: mk 1's to a lot of railways the Mk 1 was a cheep option, they came straight out of service were given a repaint and put straight into heritage service, little was done in the way of maintaince, now these coaches are getting to be 50- 60 year old , they had a expected service life of half that time, things are wearing out, draw hooks, buckeyes, gangway ends,and general corrosion are common areas of attension making it harder to keep these vehicles in traffic, there is no such thing as a quick fix now, where as you might have in the past been able to defer a job, in the end it comes back to bite you

 

It is interesting to notice that vintage carriage are taking a more prominent role, even on new start projects.
I look forward to the day in September when we can add the Gwili to the list of railways that offer the option of either vintage coaches or MK 1 s .

 

Many of the Mk1s running on preserved lines would fail basic MOT requirements let alone passenger expectations i.e. locked out doors, severely rusted crash pillars, disintergrated door posts, doors with broken frames, wheel flats, thin tyres, filty and worn out seats, broken woodwork, rusted out window corners, rotten window woodwork etc etc. One I saw recently that even had patches on the patches on its roof. Some railways seem intent on keeping the threadbare ex-BR moquette rather than reuphoster the seats with new material. The preservation movement has a ticking time bomb with Mk1 coaches. To commercially restore a Mk1 properly these days costs upwards of £100k or more per coach (that's for materials and labour, neither of which are cheap). Compare that to the £125k per coach for the NNR's four Quad coaches and Mk1s suddenly don't look so great against vintage stock. I would estimate that less than 20% of the Mk1s in preservation have had anything like a "proper" overhaul since BR days, that leaves several hundreds of Mk1s requiring upwards of £100k, that's £10m's that isn't being reinvested in coaching stock from passenger receipts that should be. Good Mk1s are already like hen's teeth, and the situation is only going to get worse. The heritage movement is going to have to face up to the fact soon that Mk1 coaches (of which the youngest are nearly 50 years old) are going to need massive investment, a bit like when the first round of Barry restorations came up for overhaul with the remaining BR life wrung out of them. Mk2s are not really a feasible alternative either, if you think Mk1s are rust buckets, the early Mk2s can be far worse and more difficult to repair. I've restored both vintage stock and Mk1s and found the vintage stock much easier as many more people have the necessary woodworking skills for vintage coaches whereas the metal bashing needed for Mk1s is much more skilled.

Steve A

 

Me too James!

The "mid 70's" generation of railways such as the WSR/Mid Hants etc had little choice but to buy MK1's ; however these railways, as well as others are now making serious efforts to add vintage rakes to their sets. Of course it might be many years before all of the coaches will be restored but many a railway now has vintage train projects, and not just the bigger ones either. Restoring a hen-house does take a lot of effort determination and patience though..............we await to see what the public effect will be when they are operating.

 

The SVR puts little boards on it's mark 1, LNER and LMS coaches so people can see the age more easily than having to crouch and peer around for the builders plate. An uncountable number of passengers always comment at the age, generally in surprise and commenting on how good they are for their age. Vintage stock adds another dimension to the passengers travelling experience, especially if it is well kept. On the SVR, they are appeals to help give two of the LNER opens a more gresley feel by the addition of coat hooks, luggage racks, wall mirrors, etc and away from the plain interiors of marks 1s.

 

A small band with some DIY skills restoring a hen house know what needs fixing as they start from scratch whilst restoring a MK1 does not yeald all its secrets until totally gutted. And out of the 500 or so MK1s in passenger use how many have had the equivalent of a Barry overhaul - not many.Anyway to all carriage restorers and maintainers they can be the crown jewels of your line - remember the public dont travel on the footplate!

 

When travelling on lines that include a mix of Mk1s and older carriages, I always try and travel on the older ones if possible. More than that - and maybe this is food for thought for commercial departments who seem to think Mk1s are better because of the ability for TTIs, buffet trolleys, guide book salespeople etc to walk through - these days when visiting lines away from the Bluebell, we have a strong preference for those (such as the IoWSR, SVR, KESR etc) where there is a likelihood that we can travel on pre-Mk 1 stock. Indeed, despite my volunteering being in a loco department, when choosing to "ride the cushions", the rolling stock on offer is a far greater draw than the locos, for me and my wife at least.

There is also another commercial factor that I think is often overlooked, which is the increase in "seats per ton" of vintage stock, which in turn means, for a given passenger loading, the train weight can diminish and therefore you can run the service with smaller engines - which are in turn cheaper to restore. As typical examples, a Mk1 is generally around 37 tons; a Bulleid or Maunsell 32 tons and a pre-grouping bogie carriage in the range 20 - 28 tons. That makes alot of difference. For example, on the Bluebell the 4 Mets + LCDR 3360 take 48*1st class; 198*3rd class, 6 wheelchairs and contains a brake compartment, yet weigh only about 92 tons. By contrast, our five coach Mk 1 set takes 66*1st and 151*3rd, plus 12 wheelchairs; contains a brake; weighs 178 tons. In other words, twice the load for fewer passengers. With the known pressures many lines are facing in keeping sufficient engines in steam, and the the fact that smaller engines are cheaper to restore than larger ones, I think there is a "win win" for lines that can provide the operationally needed seating capacity in lighter carriages, which are both a draw in themselves and can go some way to cutting locomotive restoration and running costs. Of course, that pre-supposes you have access to both pre-Mk 1 carriages and smaller engines...

Tom

 

That phrase should be inscibed in gilded letters in the office of every railway general manager in the country... :smile:

Tom

 

Quite agree. However there are still rather too many lines who delude themselves into thinking that "the public" like big engines when they are really seeking an excuse for running them.

 

Personally, although I am too young to remember Mk1 coaches in regular service, I definitely prefer to travel in vintage or pre-1948 carriages any day; they have a certain charm and character that is somehow missing in the MK1s, although I do also see the potential problems with older stock that has already been mentioned, such as having to squeeze into a compartment with a bunch of strangers. I know that lines with vintage sets of coaches like the KWVR or Tallylyn make the most of them by advertising the dates they run these sets. Could other lines which have pre 1948 stock that they run regularly make this a particular selling point of their line, after all, the passengers do travel in them, not on the engine. I think this is why keeping the interiors all carriages, whether vintage or MK1, smart is important, because once you are aboard the train, it could just as well be Thomas the tank engine on the front as it could be Tornado.
Others have mentioned the hard work that is involved now in restoring even the relatively modern MK1 stock, and this weekend (17/18th Aug), and you can see for yourself the work that's involved in restoring and maintaining these vehicles at the GWSR's Carriage and Wagon department open weekend at Winchcombe. Tours are free, but donations would be gratefully received. Tour times will be displayed on the platform at Winchcombe during the day. For further details please take a look at: GWR - Gloucestershire's mainline heritage railway - Carriage and Wagon open weekend

 

As someone who is young enough to like early Mk2 coaches because my days of travelling on NSE west of England trains I find that as long as there is a opening window so that you can get the atmosphere/ sounds into the carriage all is well. Most of the people that travel on heritage railways are families and mum will not let you forget if she traveled in a dirty worn out coach, so no repeat visit from them plus bad press to other people. Given that A early Mk2 coach is from the 1960's and mk1's are earlier these are both now vintage vehicles in many peoples eyes and as stated are past the point of a quick coat of paint etc.

My local railway is on the Isle of Wight, we use vintage island coaches as they are all that will fit the loading gauge of the island. The 4 wheel coaches rebuilt since 1984 were done because they are lightweight, 11tons and carry up to 50 people so are good people carriers. Being easy to restore and filling the vintage age that people like makes them a good way of expanding you fleet.

The railway makes sure that each coach is put through the works each year as this keeps on top of any problems, so making sure that body wise a heavy overhaul is not needed with the cost in both time and expenditure. Some time in the future The IoWsr will get around to restoring their vintage train, 5 coach 1864-1882 Oldbury 4 wheelers which will make the rest seem quite young.

So in closing as long as its clean and tidy and looks different to what people are used to then most families/people will be happy.

Cheers,

Colin