Do railtour operations need a unified voice ?

Re: NORTH WALES COAST EXPRESS 2012

ADB Your posts are insulting, patronising and do you no credit. You like to portray yourself as an international business type. If this is how you conduct yourself no wonder the country can't export! From my experience of the IT industry they sell you something that is over sold, under specified, screws up, and needs originality of thought to get something out of it, and your own posts indicate that you earn more from follow up work than mere systems. What an indictment! If all you are in business for is a short term ROI no wonder you can't think strategically. Try taking a long term view. You might learn something.

Business thrives by working together but the ethos you are propounding displays nothing of the kind. As for you being present at BR meetings in 1991 - what were you, a sixth former or on year out?

By that time I had twenty years of railway experience and had met every type of enthusiast, both inside and outside the industry, from streetsweepers to billionaires. Your generalisation does not ring true and does not represent the industry. Some were dreamers. Some were hard headed technical or businessmen. Unfortunately a lot out there are the former

Messrs Smith, who was active then, and with whom I worked in various fields, Hoskins, and a lot more names are not in the game for fun, and have not made their fortunes by being behind the door. Bringing people with a common business product together is nothing to do with ROI and you well know it. It is about understanding and working with each other, where work can be dovetailed and simplified, where a product can be made more suitable for customer needs etc etc. You should try it sometime if you have never worked with your clients that way. It produces better results fosters trust and increases sales. - really!

But the parties to railtouring are nevertheless on the rough end of ridiculous treatment and - frankly - ignorance, at the hands of the modern generation of management inside Network Rail. There really aren't many worthwhile people left now, as if you have a mind of your own you are ruthlessly hunted down and told that you are not company material and hustled out - even being escorted out in some cases I have encountered. The net result is a cowed and subservient workforce, bereft of any independent thought and managers who think they know the industry, but couldn't manage their way out of a paper bag - qed - today's fiasco.

As for the tour companies - if every time I write about railtouring you think its about RTC - that also says more about you than me. Today was an RTC event so I am writing about them - putting all their eggs in one basket, hoping they would get away with under resourcing the activity - result disappointed passengers, and an almost empty train when it passed me at Oxford Road. Unhappy punters - unhappy promoters - lose, lose, lose.

Do you really know about open access, RT1 contracts, Network Change and much, much more? Do you know some of the misapprehensions in the NR Charter Train department? I actually do because a former colleague calls here to pay rent every now and then and briefs me.

Are you happy buying tours off "the plan" which have no real basis in resourcing and planning? I won't buy when tours are first proposed because they are mere stabs in the dark at that stage. Are you happy when tours require hotel nights before and after, because of ridiculous schedules, supplied at the last minute - really - are you? Are you happy with a business which seems over dependent on coffin dodgers with little discrimination, and less zest for life making up a large part of the cash flow? Where's the future in that game? Talk to Ralph - he'll tell you. Are you happy with tours that don't go where you booked to go, and with haulage you aren't interested in? If so - you are too easily pleased and another reason why business is failing nowadays - falling standards of both provision and expectation. When I buy a commodity - I expect what I pay for - and although I will go along some of the way with 7P above - if the provider has not set out to try in the first instance I won't be on that road long.

As for your idea of costs - I can cross the Atlantic in five star luxury for under £100 a day. Railtouring is no cheap option. Paying £80 to £180 to sit in sixty year old, dusty, dirty coaches with failing heating and no lighting, being fed a menu with no choice doesn't appeal that much to me these days, especially when at least one way you won't be anywhere near the loco. And as for US Tours costing £500 a day - I've been there and I know where you are talking out of!

Hence why I am unshakeably of the opinion that an industry which communicates with and understands its various component parts has a far better chance of success than what we have today. If your take on that is that it is somehow idealistic claptrap, then you really do know nothing about business, or creating networks and relationships that can last and prosper.

So - to loco pools etc. There has been a gold rush for business this year, and that in a year when leisure spending is collapsing, and the biggest klondyker is RTC - sorry, but that's a fact. That they have set up a pool which until three weeks ago was down to one loco, and a loco which couldn't cover their entire diagrams at that, due to the axle load restriction applied at Frodsham, says all that is needed. They were, and are flying by the seat of their pants.

Talking with stewards who are still working for RTC gives the game away. They are still running high numbers of twelve coach sets with a majority first and dining consist. But they aren't filling anymore. Put a few no steam days and cancellations in the mix and the writing on the wall won't be far away.

The answer - prudence in planning, certainty in delivery, providing a quality product. That can be done only by reducing the number of trains, matching the call to loco availability, requiring rolling stock operators to up their game, and take no notice of your calculations as to cost. Simplistic planning of that type is what got us where we are today. You need to be much cuter than that!

Today was avoidable, by not being so greedy for turnover, by having a better infrastructure provider, by having a railway that is maintained according to the 1993 Railways Act - but it isn't going to happen if we all sit in far corners looking away from each other - what a counsel of despair!

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

It was a day of reakoning because a number of events came together to add up as one IMO, and illustrate all too clearly what many on here have felt for a while :-

1) RTC have appeared to mislead its potential customers by advertising a product they can't deliver, I.e. the possibility of 6233 from Liverpool to Holyhead ? Whether they knew it was out of gauge for part of the route when they produced the advertising is irrelevant as they should have known by the start of this weekend and the advertising hadn't been amended. If you're going to use modern up to the minute technology, I.e. the web, then use it properly or don't use it at all. "Style over substance" springs to mind !

2) The direction of the tide is turning against RTC I would say as a number of Users on here now appear ro be concerned about their business model and operating policies, not to mention what appears to be instances of mis-selling. I've been a member on here since December 2011 and spent the first few months observing. I can now say this is the first time I've seen so many voices of concern about RTC put forward. They somehow manage to get into most threads at some point which in itself speaks volumes wouldn't you say ?

3) As for offering solutions, that's a bit like saying don't criticise the Govt if you can't do better yourself. We, well I at least am not in the railtour business, RTC however are, and by entering into that game they stand to either win praise or criticism and should deal with each accordingly surely ?


I shouldn't get too complacent about the fact RTC haven't been tested in court yet if I were you. This could well be a case of "enough rope etc etc ....". Sooner or later someone will go down this road and unfortunately the outcome will probably be damaging for more than just RTC !

I really do wonder reading some of the posts on here whether certain individuals have missed their vocation in life, ie to take over where Alastair Campbell left off ! Spin doesn't even begin to cover it. Maybe theres a job to be had working for DC ? He appears to be in need of some good PR at the moment !

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Those of us who have been on the forum for a while have seen all this before. It's the same old stuff about going to court, how things can't go on as they are, how the railtour industry is on the verge of collapse etc etc. Lots of hot air and self-righteous lecturing which won't make a shred of difference to what actually happens but makes a few members feel better because they are 'fighting' the good 'fight'.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Complacency seems to be spreading like an infection among some on here !

When will these people realise there's another world out there, and it's that world's rules that apply, not those of a dream world ?

It doesn't matter how long individual members have been contributing to this forum and what views may have been posted before. Only today matters, and every day is different with new rules and new circumstances. Is that really such a hard lesson to learn ?

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

Let's pull together in the same direction. Hasn't the steam movement got enough outside enemies without fighting each other?

If it weren't for RTC, we wouldn't have had half the steam opportunities that we've had in recent years.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

I'm all for pulling together in the same direction, that's why I think we need a "unified voice" to control the current scene. It's all very well celebrating the opportunities we've enjoyed in recent years and currently, but if that comes at a cost in years to come, who's going to be smiling then ?

 

Re: NORTH WALES COAST EXPRESS 2012

I do wonder if one small company attempting to promote seven trains in three days is over-ambitious to the point of foot hardy. I dont mean that to sound harsh but its a small team in that Norfolk office with a small team of (I understand volunteer) stewards who provide the face to face customer service on the trains.

I also wonder if one dedicated but again, small, operator agreeing to operate all of that plus a Vintage Train train, plus any diesel charters, on track plant etc. is over-ambitious to the point of foot hardy.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

eco082007 you completely missed my point. I'm no apologist for RTC or any other operator come to that. I'm as troubled by late changes/cancellations/crappy stock and delays as you (and others) are. But getting wound up on here, and expending vast quantities of hot air ain't going to achieve much I'm afraid. We've been here many times before, and until someone with the ability, time and will to put an umbrella organisation together fronts up, then I can't see the relationship with NR changing. As for the product on offer, then sadly that's down to the consumer. If you don't like Company A's offer, then don't book with them.

 

This is a new thread copying elements of the NWCE thread and RTC threads for a discussion on how people think the future of railtour operations should be.

If you think I've missed some other posts which should be here, or ones that should not, please pm.

The links to the original threads are here:

NWCE thread..

http://railways.national-preservation.com/whats-going/36813-north-wales-coast-express-2012-a-14.html

RTC thread..
http://railways.national-preservation.com/whats-going/28842-railway-touring-company.html


Added: I have converted this to a poll thread. (if you don't like the questions shoot me)
The poll is private, even mods cannot see who voted for which option).

 

Re: NORTH WALES COAST EXPRESS 2012

Frank, I really think you would struggle to sell me anything. As a professional buyer in the wholesale industry for the last 45 years I feel you would not have the flexibility and the pragmatic approach that I require from my suppliers. I would however agree with your inclusion of RTC as a 'business for profit' this should be paramount for all Railtour Operators to avoid previous failures with out of pocket customers and suppliers. Not to mention the damage done to this sector of the industry.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

There is already an umbrella organisation of sorts. Its called West Coast Railways.

West Coast Railways operate a huge share of steam charters, own and maintain their own locomotives and rolling stock, resource traincrew, plan and control trains. Their customers need to be demanding for things to change. They need to insist on quality rolling stock for example.

RTC also need to be realistic in what they ask and WCR need to be realistic in what they can offer. RTC charters used 30 WCR coaches yesterday with trains starting from three locations. The best of the WCR fleet will be on their own trains up in Fort William, the next best will be on their own trains midweek, Scarboroughs, used at the weekend on The Waverley, leaving the less good vehicles for the other work. Dobbing really doesnt 'seem interested' in making the customer experience better.


It interests me that Steam Dreams have gone down the route of train ownership. I suspect they regret not doing it years ago. I am impressed that they have gone back to DB who are, without a doubt more expensive, but I believe will be much better when things go wrong.

I am not sure if we will ever know when it was ruled that 46233 was to big or weighty at Frodsham. Loco availability is hard to predict and their has been a shortage. That said, I have noticed comments about Air Braked stock meaning the Black Five cant work this train or that and feel that its not beyond common sense to fit air brakes to a Black 5. Its not like it has not been done already on two others! As an aside I saw the Duchess getting steam up at Crewe after watching the Top and Tailed diesel departure and wondered if she might run to Chester to take over. It would have been logical, I am sure NR could have organised a path for it, but it wasn't to be. Any reason other than CBA?

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

I'm sorry if I didn't understand the feelings behind your post and now you've clarified them I can see we have a lot more in common so thanks for the update.

I think the quantities of hot air being expended is a lot to do with the passion we all share, it's just we have differing views on the actions of some of those involved at a higher level than ourselves. I think it's healthy these differences are aired and shared but ultimately I agree it'll all be for nothing if it isn't followed by positive action one way or another.

With this in mind I'm really pleased to see this poll has been set up and congratulations to the instigator as it's a really good first step to convert the passion into recommendations for action. Pleased to see that so far there's a big majority for a "unified voice" for the industry as long as it isn't SLOA. This is the way I voted as there was a lot that wasn't good about SLOA and in many ways it was run like a Private Club. I do think we've gone to the other extreme now however and although it can be fun for a while when an activity goes "unchecked", the fun rarely lasts forever and eventually something happens or someone does something which has catastrophic and long lasting effects.

Once the poll has reached it's deadline for votes, let's all try and turn the result into some kind of action, hopefully with the aim of creating the "unified voice" we all want and the industry needs.

 

No but it is not ok as it is

The problem is a small number of promoters fighting for dwindling trade and shooting themselves in the foot with a lack of customer service from those promoters. The promoters are not holding rolling stock owners to account for poor standards or demanding better standards of accommodation. The promoters and operators are not working with the other suppliers that well either, advertising locomotives far in advance without even booking them and confirming the locomotive is able to do the job.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

eco082007 -

come on on, there's only 6 votes do far, and that includes you and me!

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

This is an excellent post and makes some very good points. I don't agree that WCR can be considered an "umbrella" organisation of the type we need in it's present form however as they would have a vested interest in policies that favoured them. The "umbrella" organisation needs to be independent of all interested parties ideally, which is probably a bit of a fantasy unfortunately. Hopefully someone will prove me wrong or unduly pessimistic butI'm wondering in whose interests it would be to form such an organisation and then work for it to support the interests of others.

If I had to nominate a likely candidate it would have to be a loco owner and owners that would head up such a set up. They better than anyone know what their precious assets are capable of. They would also be able to predict loco availability with more certainty surely in a bid to prevent some of the "false starts" we've seen of late.

Another advantage of having loco owners heading up a "unified voice" "umbrella" type of organisation is that in the case of Jeremy Hosking, John Cameron or groups like that which looks after Tornado, the A1 Group etc, they are successful Business people in their own right, who are probably a lot better communicators than some of those running the Tour Promoters who are more "operations people". In the late great Bernard Staite we had a unified voice, (even after SLOA), and possibly unofficially so, who could communicate across the board. He was there from the start of course, and many looked up to him. Since his retirement and subsequent passing, it has been a bit of a free for all I suspect with certain parties going all out to be "top dog", forgetting all about the long term interests of the assets, the people involved in looking after them, and of course the paying customers, without whom you may as well pack up and go home.

Somebody really needs to do something about the rolling stock as this is what is going to end up being the limiting factor in the future. I did some photting of the TE at Taunton yesterday, and although some of the carriages have been refurbished, others are very tatty indeed, especially the rooves. I heard one person on platform 3 who was waiting for the 1835 to Paddington when 71000 rolled into platform 2, comment on this to the effect, "Doesn't that coach look scruffy ?" Now that may sound unimportant to us who know it probably has no impact on the safety or comfort of the carriage but to the outside world it looks bad, especially when at the front of the train is a polished, magnificently turned out steam locomotive. Hardly likely to make onlookers enquire about travelling on the train in future, even though modest attempts are made to entice onlookers with posters in the windows, some of which I am afraid are left over from last year and looking scruffy themselves ! The Support Crew have done their bit to promote the industry, what about the rolling stock owner. Riviera Trains, and Charles Padget, I hope you're reading this as it's not just some of WCRC stock that's in poor condition.

Maybe the promised relaxation in the rules over use of preserved rolling stock on the mainline will provide some of the answers to this in the future as invariably this is much better looked after (internally at least), than that found on the main line.

As posted by me elsewhere, some of the stock on WCRC's books is an absolute disgrace of which both David Smith and James Shuttleworth should be ashamed. How can either of them justify turning out stock for a railtour without a working PA in any of the train, or lights in part of it as they have done in the past, and not just once but for months at a time, train after train ?

Can anyone explain to me how that can be justified at any level ? I'd be extremely grateful.

 

Re: NORTH WALES COAST EXPRESS 2012

Quite a long post, I hope I have quoted / summarised it well.

Issues from tbirdss post

1. If ...in business for is a short term ROI ...can't think strategically.
2. Business thrives by working together
3. By that time I had twenty years of railway experience and had met every type of enthusiast, ... Some were dreamers. Some were hard headed technical or businessmen. Unfortunately a lot out there are the former
4. (expands 2) Bringing people with a common business product together is nothing to do with ROI and you well know it. It is about understanding and working with each other, where work can be dovetailed and simplified, where a product can be made more suitable for customer needs etc etc.... It produces better results fosters trust and increases sales. - really!
5. .. Network Rail. There really aren't many worthwhile people
6. Not getting what you pay for, and low value compared to other industries in the same market space
7. Declining sales in high value areas

Proposed solution:

The answer - prudence in planning, certainty in delivery, providing a quality product. That can be done only by reducing the number of trains, matching the call to loco availability, requiring rolling stock operators to up their game, and take no notice of your calculations as to cost. Simplistic planning of that type is what got us where we are today. You need to be much cuter than that!

Conclusion

Today was avoidable, by not being so greedy for turnover, by having a better infrastructure provider, by having a railway that is maintained according to the 1993 Railways Act - but it isn't going to happen if we all sit in far corners looking away from each other - what a counsel of despair!

....................

My opinion

1. Strategy, Vision...

The lack of a long term vision is the problem, no one can tell you, and certainly no one is preaching a 5 or 10 year plan for mainline steam.
True speculators overhaul locomotives, but stock, route network, MARKETING, PROMOTION ? It's all done season to season. I doubt when the west highland steam started they believed it would still be going 20 years later, is there a plan to see it another 20 ?

Now why is that ?

Uncertainty of the future for rail access, locomotive availability, age of the promoters themselves, age of the clients ?
There certainly doesn't seem to be an imminent end to mainline steam.

Maybe someone needs to come along and grasp the nettle, throw in their millions and take a gamble on a new market sector.

2. Business case

Regardless the passion and the emotion, if it's not going to make money, it's going to fail at some point.
You need to either gamble on a new market or cater for what is viable.
If your not doing it for money, why are you doing it ? (it isn't for regulation, compliance or safety)
A good business case will know what the product components are likely to be, cost and operate and demonstrate that if implemented correctly will create value...

3. Design

This is where I believe your collective focus is at, but to me is too narrow to one area.
To quote the titfield thunderbolt "given enough time I'll rig up something that will tow the queen Mary" (and yes I use this quote to my employees all the time, who look at me as if I am mad)
Its easy to over design an ineffective, inefficient solution. "design by committee "
This is where ROI plays out... What's the objective, how much money do you have to do it ?

The design of the product is complex.. A loco, crew, toc, staff, network rail, promoter etc etc.
it's impossible that they do all this without communicating already

NR doesnot have an unlimited budget, or resources or salaries to pay them, and even less for charter operations.
i fail to believe they don't communicate, but round table discussions at £several thousands in salaries per meeting are not going to be adding sufficient value.
Long term railtour planning however will, but the risk is will it sell over time ? And unknown unknowns can occur at anytime.

4.Implementation

Costs. End of.
if its too expensive it won't work.
coaches is the throttle on the product quality and customer perception.
So someone is either making a killing on knackered stock, or the cost of quality for the stock to be overhauled is too high to be viable as a saleable product to offer promoters in a price driven market.

Solution is ala steam dreams, invest and do your own.

Sticking with costs, network access, stock moves, light engines, staffing etc.. Everyone has them, unless you own them all.
The old days, the solution to loco failures was simple...The Victorians found the most cost efficient solution that still stands 150 years later... Have more locos... So who is paying for it ?

5. Operation

So what if you have the product, have the sales, have the plan and it all goes south..
Your loco fails the night before, stock derails, broken rail, teenagers on the line whatever...
no amount of time, money or committee can plan ahead for the unknown unknowns.
it all comes down to best efforts on the day... If everyone is fire fighting elsewhere sadly sometimes you are the loser, it sucks but it costs less to make you right than several thousands of others.

The only mitigation here is setting the expectation, or setting compensation.
alternatively is insurance policies.. Costs of a spare engine etc

6. Improvement

in a free market economy anyone should be allowed to run a railtour (local newspaper, football club, school day out etc) this seems to be the land time forgot and no one sits in this space as a provider, but having MR Papa's day out going to network rail and asking them to project manage it is not the way forwards.
Having someone goto a solution provider (someone who can source the stock, the loco, deal with network rail and the operational logistics) is the way forwards.
dont we have 2 of these already... WCRC and EWS ?

Getting rid of a promoter won't fix the stock, the loco or the network. Creating a monopoly on mainline steam operations won't either.
the only other solution is set routes, set locos, set stock, set times.. Everything becomes much easier. Works well in Europe. Unfortunately this loses it's enthusiast appeal, but then is it the enthusiast were trying to appeal to... That takes you back to step 1.. Strategy.

 

Re: NORTH WALES COAST EXPRESS 2012

More than two. Virgin have run a number of Football Charter trains in house. Anybody can hire their loco hauled set with their crew if its on their network or a DB/West Coast crew if its off their area.

 

Re: Railway Touring Company

I agree here, it never occured to me that WCRC would have a "pecking order" re the quality of their stock. When you think about it however, of course they would want to promote themselves first and foremost, credentials which would certainly disqualify them from playing a major role in any "umbrella" organisation that may be set up.

My experience of one of their sets on last year's disaster of a railtour, "The Kentish Belle Armistice Day" hauled by 34067 on Friday 11 November was a real eye opener for me, not just to RTC but WCRC as well, with representatives of both organisations, (Train crew excepted), either hapless, untrained, incompetent, or a combination of all three. Apart from the lack of a PA there was little traditional coach steward presence in the traditonal sense. What we had instead were two "young ladies", one of whom was clad in a "pelmet" masquerading as a skirt wandering up and down the train flirting with anyone gullible enough to take it in ! Not sure whose innovation this was, (is for all I know), but it didn't go down well with a lot on board, and when disaster struck at Martin Mill, the pair of them ran for the hills ! RTC's reputation at it's best in short !

Moving onto WCRC we had stock without a working PA, carriages without lights, vestibules that resembled Niagra Falls when it rained, and so on and so on. I was staggered to see steam heating in use when we joined the train at Waterloo as I thought it had been banned in the late 80s and never revived, indeed much of the old SLOA stock had the equipment removed so no idea why anyone thought it a good idea to revive it as it was never really reliable, which is why it was replaced I suspect.

Anyway, it's RTC's responsibility to take this up with WCRC as their Customer. If they don't they can expect to continue getting the kind of emails they got from me, (i.e. their customers when WCRC mess up).

Maybe Mr. Smith or Mr. Shuttleworth would like to come on here and explain themselves in this respect of a perceived "pecking order" as far as rolling stock is concerned, as I'm sure we'd all be delighted to read their explanations / excuses, or whatever else they feel can be used to justify it ?