VT - 5043 to Edinburgh - 26/27/28 May

Another view from someone on the trip. Still fuming over the atrocious timings, we joined the train at Crewe and for about ten minutes, things were looking up – 5043 looked resplendent, the Club Class coach was at the front of the train, and the sun was shining. Then Michael Whitehouse came on the tannoy with the unenviable task of breaking the news of the diesel assistance from Carnforth and from that point on the trip was pretty much a write-off for someone like me who thrills to the sound of a steam engine working hard against the grade. Suddenly the main event, the assaults on Shap and Beattock, had been cancelled, and it then became a case of salvaging what enjoyment I could from the rest of the trip.

At Carlisle I made a bee-line for the Kings Head to drown my sorrows with a few excellent pints of Yates beer. On our eventual arrival at Edinburgh, I found I had completely misjudged the distance from Waverley to our hotel and it took 40 minutes to trudge to our Travelodge not far from Haymarket. On the way to the hotel, we gaped in disbelief at the utter shambles which is the Edinburgh Tram project. Having checked in, there was just time to find the nearest Good Beer Guide pub, Thomson’s Bar on Morrison Street, and what a gem it is!

Sunday was a better day. We caught a train to Dalmeny and walked down to South Queensferry for a mooch around, liked what we saw and made a note to return in future. After joining the train for the historic crossing of the Forth Bridge, we much enjoyed the trip around the Fife coast. First impressions of Stirling were favourable – what a lovely station, complete with semaphore signalling! Arrived at the Good Beer Guide listed Portcullis Hotel near the Castle (Stirling, not 5043) perspiring freely. Had an indifferent pint, tried to buy another only to discover they had run out of real ale, so set off on a fruitless search for another decent pub. Returned hot and thirsty to station to take pix of 5043 looking simply gorgeous in the sun. Evening in Edinburgh – another visit to Thomson’s bar followed by a cracking Chinese meal at Chop-Chop on Morrison Street.

The less said about Monday’s ludicrously slow diesel-hauled return south, the better. The lowlight was probably being slow-roasted by the sun during the protracted opportunity to view Tesco’s car park in Lockerbie. I have to agree with Lil Bear about the rateable 37 thrash from Carlisle to Shap summit though.

Heartfelt thanks to all at VT and WCRC for providing the trip despite the double whammy of crap timings and enforced diesel assistance, both issues outside their control.

One small constructive criticism of VT regarding afternoon tea in Club Class: when serving afternoon tea, hot drinks should arrive shortly after the scones, not over two hours later!

After enjoying a succession of great trips behind 5043, most recently on the Cornishman, I suppose it was inevitable that one would go pear-shaped and it is rotten luck for all concerned that it was this 3-day trip.

So what would I like to see happen now? Pretty simple really – I would like Network Rail to fess up over the timings fiasco and to waive a significant element of their charges. This cost relief would be passed on to Vintage Trains, allowing them to offer some modest concession to ‘Castle to Scotland’ passengers when booking on a future trip. Do I expect this will happen? Well, I live in hope!

Nick M.

 

Although not on it, it really saddens me to read that & Lil Bear's post. I really feel for the FARE PAYING passenger who shelled out their hard earned for what should been an enjoyable experience. Not sure sure of the cost, but certainly not cheap. I also feel for VT who worked very hard to organise the trip & prepare/run 5043, a great loco. All ruined by some organisation called notwork fail! By issuing crap timings just before the tour & then turning it into a diesel weeked out. It is now probably now forgotten by them & they have washed their hands of it. It's already been quoted their policy was either the box goes or 5043 goes nowhere.
As mentioned many times before, what is the legal stance on this? It only needs one person to open a test case, not withstanding the small print.
Trades description/sale of goods act comes to mind (don't know the latter only applies to physical goods or not).
No wonder Leviathan wanted to drown his sorrows!

 

I'm sorry, but compared to some of the other fiascos endured as a result of p poor management, planning, poor load calculation, simple desire to keep hands on the fares paid, this is one example where the exclusion clauses apply fairly, and legally, and in full. The weather was no-one's fault. The timings however were a complete joke. We almost had time for an Ullswater cruise between Lockerbie and Grayrigg!

In terms of good customer relations however, some understanding toward the passengers would no doubt be well received. The adherence to timings long after passing traffic had gone by was more than noticeable. But there again - using your loaf is frowned on in today's world - more's the pity!

I, like many on board would certainly have bailed out long before the end as my interest is in steam haulage. I can travel behind faster and better diesels anytime, so why would I want to experience a 47? A 37 has some character - but enough would have been more than enough.

Leviathan - The Hawes Inn right under the bridge - Deuchars Ales on tap, steam over your head - excellent!

 

All,

I have tried reading the thread and to be honest I am close to loosing my temper.

For all those that have said positive comments about the tour, we thank-you. The majority of passengers I spoke to enjoyed the trip and understood the difficulties faced. I took as much time as I could spare on the train talking to passengers in all the coaches.

Hatherton Hall - If you were not on the train then your comments about wanting a refund if you were on the train are ridiculous. How on earth can you know the experience people are having from your hole where you hide? Anyone that couldn’t see the blatant sarcasm in my comment offering a refund, well……

David1984 – You have said a lot of negative things about the tour and as a passenger I am genuinely sorry that you did not have the experience we set out to provide. HOWEVER, why on earth didn’t you say anything to ME when I stood next to your seat for 30minutes chatting to the row next to you? You were Coach-F seats 11/12F&B right? You couldn’t have missed me – I am 6”2 wearing a white chef jacket with a VT nametag on it that says Ben of all things.

Now to clear up a few things.

We got the final (confirmed) timings from Netrail Wednesday afternoon and sent the tickets out immediately. The timings were not as desirable as we hoped, but there simply wasn’t enough time to ask for them to be re-worked.

The timings for the Forth Circle were within 30mins of what we asked for.

The Return journey were a little slack, but there were not nearly as many pathing stops as the outbound.

When we originally planned this trip, we took the timings from our experience taking Lizzie to Glasgow last November – see #1 on this thread. Estimated timings are exactly that – ESTIMATED.

Wednesday and Thursday am we got notice from NetRail via WCR that Bittern had set some fires in Scotland.

Friday afternoon there was a discussion with VT, NetRail & WCR about diesel involvement. The concern was with the Scotland portion of the journey. It was jointly decided that the diesel would run on the back of the train and join at Carnforth since that was where WCR keep their 37/47’s. WCR had sent a 37 to Bo’Ness at some point previously to assist with maneuvers in Edinburgh. We have NEVER planned to have a diesel with us on the trip to Scotland.

The passengers were told about the diesel joining the back at Carforth Saturday am on the train via an intercom message from our Chairman who was aboard.

As we arrived in Carlisle, we were told there had been a fire(s) on Shap and as a result, the 47 needed to be moved infrount of 5043. There was a conversation with NetRail and WCR – we were allowed to continue with the 47 inside as a compromise.

The Forth Circle, we were allowed to put the 47 on the back again. I have looked at quite a few pictures and if you didn’t know the 47 is there, you wouldn’t notice.

For the return on Monday, there was again a discussion about motive power. It came very close to 5043 becoming a guest engine of Bo’Ness for the summer (sorry James and Iain, but we needed her back in Brum!) but again, we were able to compromise and 5043 was allowed to head the train back to Brum, but was instructed to do as little work as possible to minimise the fire risk. The 37 that WCR had originally sent to Bo’Ness did have a separate path to return to Carnforth LE, but it was decided to tag it on the end of our train as additional security.

At Carlisle the 37 and 47 were swapped to make dropping off the 47 easier at Carnforth. Remember we borrowed the 47 at the last minute, so it was needed back at Carnforth. The 37 was rostered for the VT job, so it stayed with us back to Brum. No conspiracy or lack of fuel rumors.


So for everyone who has expressed their expertise, I am going to put you into the following scenario.

You are a tour operator. It’s 16:30 on Friday. In order to proceed past Carlisle, you have been told you need diesel assistance due to a fire risk in Scotland.

Do you?
a – Cancel the tour and refund the passengers tickets? The majority of passengers (and yourself) will loose their monies for the hotels in Scotland and are already on their way to join the train in Birmingham.

b – Reschedule the tour for another weekend? Same problem as above.

c – Proceed with the tour without a diesel and not make it past the signals at Carlisle?

d – Proceed with the tour with diesel assistance.


I have said this before, but I will say it again. We will not take a diesel with us unless it is absolutly necessary. A 47, even ticking over, used a huge amount of fuel. If we use our own 47, we just pay the fuel. If we borrow one from WCR, we pay a rental charge plus milage and fuel. Why would we go to the additional expense unless it’s absolutly necessary?


PS – On Saturday, the fire-risk concern was NORTH of Carlisle. Since the Duchess stayed SOUTH of Carlisle, a diesel was not required for Saturday. Again, no conspiracy there – sorry!

 

….and one last thing. (Sorry!)

I wasn't posting on the forum over the weekend for two reasons.

a - I thought talking to the passengers personally was a better use of my time
2 – My iPad wouldn’t stay logged into NatPres long enough for it to register my posts. Several times that was probably a good thing!

(and yes my numbering is deliberate)

 

Well, Got back last night at about midnight after what was a SUPERB trip even though there was a diesel up front, i personally didnt have a problem with it as at least the steam loco was still up front and not dumped in Carlisle! The Forth circular was brilliant, plenty of time in Stirling and lots of beautiful scenery, then yesterday when waiting at Edinburgh we knew that there was going to be a diesel on the back as there hadnt been any rain and still the trip was good the only downside to the whole weekend was the temperatures on the train which everyone was moaning about but if it was raining people would've moaned about the weather being dreadful and not being able to see anything out of the train.

I had a long chat with Ben yesterday about the tour and made it clear that i wasnt bothered about the diesel as i was still on the first Castle to Scotland!

I heard many people complaining about there being a diesel up front and also someone said and i quote "haven't Network Rail got a weather station"

I would like to thank all of Vintage Trains and the loco crews for putting on a superb weekend and finally getting a Castle north of Carlisle, if there is a repeat trip planned let me know the price and my moneys in the post!

James

 

So more the more posts you have makes you more respected? What tosh!

If we knew there was going to be this situation 2 weeks in advance, we WOULD have told the passengers and taken different (appropriate) actions.

IF IF IF IF IF....Stop the conjecture and stick with the facts.

We were not happy about the fire-risk and necessary actions, but what other choices did we have?

For anyone to even infer that VT tries to rip its passengers off obviously doesn’t know us very well at all.

We spend a huge amount of time, effort and monies to run steam trains. Why would we deliberatly take a diesel unless we had to!

 

The fire risk was unavoidable, NR being late with the timings and giving a very poor and, to my mind, a totally unacceptable set of timings is another.

When is any tour operator going to take a stand and tell NR that if they cannot have the finalized timings a minimum of 7 days before a tour they will hold NR in breach of contract and take them to Court?

Yes I have some sympathy for the position VT found themselves in but they need to take a much firmer line with their suppliers. Nothing could have prevented the fire risk situation but the real losers are the passengers who paid good money for what they regard as a second rate experience.

Once again my stance of not traveling on main line steam while the current messy and unacceptable situation persists has been proved to be correct.

 

No Ben, you are totally incorrect here. I have traveled on many main line steam trips, both as a volunteer and a passenger. I stopped traveling last year after a tour I had booked on ran with 50% of the originally advertised steam mileage, with a totally different steam loco, on a date that was altered.

I last traveled on a VT train several years ago, 60009 St. Albans -York and 71000 York- St. Albans. On this tour we were given details of another tour you were running but with outline details only. The tour originated a considerable distance from my home, however as long as it was not start before 6A.M. I was prepared to travel to join it.

Upon ringing your offices to book (2 seats) I was told by the lady at your end that under no circumstances could tour timings (and please bear in mind the only times I wanted was the start time) be divulged before I had paid. As my booking depended upon start times I said I could not place a booking without this information. She maintained it was not VT policy to divulge timings, so my card returned to my wallet and I have not traveled with VT since.

Perhaps, if you wanted to sell more seats you should consider a less sarcastic tone here. Why, even if you do not wish to go to court are all you tour promoters so scared of reporting NR's antics to the rail regulator?

The current situation is unacceptable for the movement, both passengers and Tour promoters alike (and not forgetting the loco. owners). Sorry but I am not prepared to pay around £100 per person for a day out which ends up bearing little or no relation to what the promoters 'invitation to treat' suggested.

We mere passengers do have the right to an opinion and can vote with our wallets!

 

Ben - calm down lad - I understand your frustration, but sounding off against a potential customer, who happens to have an opinion, immediately after a weekend like this is perhaps not best practice. Perhaps best not to post at all for a day or two.

People all reach their own break point; mine was after I had spent about five grand and had the wee wee taken, not as an armchair observer. Oakfield, too, has been there and drawn his line in the sand. As a provider you might not like the fact that he has taken a decision, but the customer pays for what he wants to buy and only walks away after not getting it. I know that the forum owner doesn't like us referring to our experiences, but it is those that colour and drive our future decisions, so sorry Glyn - I ain't changing, until the industry does.

I don't think there could ever have been a satisfactory answer to the fire risk last weekend, but Network Rail's care of their clients and their own infrastructure is becoming a joke. As someone you will have been working with very closely over the weekend once said to me "poor broken backed railway" and that was a decade ago!

Its getting worse by the month now.

 

Sorry, but I have to say something here. Ben, I don't know what your exact position is with VT, but I would imagine a pretty high one. As such I don't think you are being very professional as a "company rep" in the way you speak to people on here. Nobody would expect to be spoken to in that manner by any company employee be it CS advisor, shop worker or any one else, whether by phone/letter/email or even forums like this. If I were treated like that by a company employee, a complaint would soon go in to their management team & P45's could be flying around. I've seen it happen. A tour operator which specialises in steam trips is no different to any other company.
Even your explanation in post #225 was a bit sarcastic.

 

What if VT took a stand against Network Rail and lost ?

After all things considered railtour promoters are not much more different to travel agents, they are at the same mercies, be it train, bus, sea or air.

a better stand could be made by WCRC or DBS.
The problem seems to be very similar to Amtrak in the US... They are considered as freight trains running on someone else's lines and have a low priority.

Mod hat here... Please remember this is an open playground, let's not shoot the messenger just because you can see him. Its obvious he sees the passion but he alone cannot solve the issue only represent it and convey the message back. Also remember unlike other tour operators... At least he reveals his face on the day, on the forum and in the heat.

 

But he needs to respect the views and opinions of other forum members and not be rude or belittle their opinions which are every bit as valid as his, after all one of the reasons he posts on here is to promote VT!

 

Ben has a valid point.. Vintage trains is one of the best mainline steam companies who put on the best available routes with steam haulage on the main line. We should all be grateful of all the hard work Ben and his team put on over the last weekend. It was unavoidable regarding the weather.. The diesel was for everyones safely and a safe back up unless passengers want hours of delay and wild line fires . Ive spoken to many of people about the tour and the company and everyone is really happy in what vintage train offer to the paying customers.. The ones who moan are just photographic customers who have an opinion to ruin their picture or video because of a box.

We should also be grateful that Network rail let's vintage trains run a steak hauled from tyseley to Edinburgh. And return.. They could of turned round and said no steam allowed and a diesel to haul the whole trip but no they gave vintage trains a chance and they did it.

As for the timings network rail planning team work flat out to achieve the best timings for all steam trains. We should all be grateful for their hard work to got in a charter tour on what is a busy uk network.

Well done to network rail, vintage trains and all fair passengers.

Apologises now if I've upset the customers who don't pay and slag off a really top charter company.

 

Moderator note: placed with impartiality.

whilst not wishing to detract the conversation, which there are valid points for both sides, it does need to be consistent with the forum rules framework.

http://railways.national-preservation.com/forum-information/687-forum-rules.html

Please ensure you read rules 1b, 1c

Lets not have a rout.

Please feel free to continue, respectfully all members.

Remember there is also a private message button, I am sure not everything needs to be discussed in public.

 

Who do you work for, VT, NR or WCRC? Why do you single out fair passengers for praise? Are they better than Brunets, redheads or those who are bald?

 

Totally agree!