Mainline Steam Operators

RE the point about mainline stock in general - is it not time the preservation world seriously thought about a new type of coach for railtours? Purpose built to look like a Mk1 or similar but to modern safety standards and with nostalgically styled, but modern interiors? If railtours are about travelling behind the engine on the front, then it stands to reason that the comfort and the safety of the passengers in the train must be improved in future? How long can MK1s stay on the mainline in any event?

I wonder if the whole scenario of the lack of crews, and a possible monopoly of railtour operators is just the tip of the iceberg for the problems facing mainline steam in the future.

 

I don't know, that was why I was asking.

If it's a problem that could affect the running of railtours in the future, then isn't it time we started to ask exactly those questions? If the need appears, then preservation has to match that need to plug the gap to survive.

 

The amount of training and experience needed to become a qualified driver on the mainline rules that out im afraid, it needs to be done by a train operator.

Oviously WCRC could train drivers for charter operations and pass them out on steam, but that is a very long and expensive process which is hard to justify when you can attract drivers from other companies. Of all the problems facing mainline steam, i dont think this is the most pressing.

Chris

 

Brell retired, we know who Tom is, but who are Mark and Steve?

 

60163 and 30777, 70013, 4472.

 

I had a similar thought, too as regards new rakes of 'heritage' carriages. If I had the money, I'd try and build a rake of steel-framed, or even monocoque Bulleid carriages with modern safety features such as central locking controlled from the guard's compartment. The only time I rode in one on the Bluebell, I felt they were among the comfiest I'd been in, and they'd make a fine sight, particularly if a Tavern Car and matching restaurant was added to the trainset. I would have thought they'd be pretty gauge-friendly, too.

 

It's actually an interesting thought, ignoring the body shell for a moment, could a standardised frame and bogie been certified, then use that as the basis for building bodies of different heritage designs to modern standards?, sure there may be differences in lengths, but "as close as possible" to original on a standardised frame, then certified body design to meet it..

Issue here is reasonable cost... Design and certify a new rake of 10 coaches.. One of which being a brake, buffet, second, first etc... That's pretty customised... If it were 100 or 200 then it'd be a different proposition, hence the need to standardise as much as possible.

 

A loco hauled version of the Electrostar with decent seats and conventional doors with CDL? It would cost an absolute fortune though, we are better off improving the Mk1 and Mk2 fleets as much as possible within the existing design envelope.

Regards,

Dan

 

Its really a thread about steam operation and how secure or insecure it may be. Do we need more competition or not? Is it even possible for anyone else to enter the market?

Re Coaching stock. Easy, use Mk2's.

 

Precisely my thoughts. The problem would be - who wants what? I am certain that a common railtour vehicle frame and bogie, based on the MK1's overall size, but arranged into fixed rakes and in some respects creating an affordable rake of modern mainline coaches, could be developed, but only if everyone who wanted a rake (or more) came together to develop it, simply because no one group has anywhere near the capital to start such a project off.

Unless of course, a few wealthy businessmen could be persuaded to invest in such a project - it might define the next fifty years of preservation.

As an aside, in theory, you could make a little money by, in effect, providing private heritage railways with half decent mk1 rakes which, as they get replaced by the railtour operators, are sold off to railways who need them. I'm not saying that is the answer to the sheer amount of capital you'd need to develop a standard rake in the first place, but it would be mutually beneficial to all parties thereafter.

 

Problem with Air Brakes is the system and Air Pumps installed are not always the most reliable things and what you gain in higher number of potential rescue loco's you lose with a higher risk of failure, when did a Vac brake last fail ?.

As has been the general opinion in the thread, i think WCRC do a fine job, but i would sleep easier if there was another TOC accepting vac braked work.

DBS give me the impression (my opinion) that they woulden't be overly upset to lose their charter work, having undertaken little to no crew training for some years, accepted lose charter work to WCRC with seemingly no reaction and that Rainbow coloured Mk1 rake looks shabby and untidy.

 

To be fair, the 'rainbow coloured' mk1 rake is owned by Riviera, though how much EWS/DBS has gained from the heralded 'riviera alliance' im not so sure - at least they can put out two decent, uniform rakes of Mk1's now after many years.

I dont know why people seem so desperate to ditch the Mk1 - i've heard many times that its far easier to take them apart and weld in more metal than a more modern design like the Mk2's. When it comes down to value for money, even the most thorough overhaul (A1SLT are spending 100k on a complete rebuild and overhaul of their support coach) is going to be cheaper than a relatively small run of bespoke carriages.

Chris

 

As others have posted, not going to happen without going through full mainline driver training. There are, however, plenty of people with said mainline competence already driving for heritage outfits on our days off.

However, no one short of retiring is going to leave a full time job to work as and when for a charter outfit. Our competence costs a lot to develop & maintain too, so our employers may also not be too keen on us moonlighting on our days off either. Add to that that steam doesn't always fit too well with today's millimeter perfect railway, and when driving trains is what pays the mortgage, you just have to exercise caution. Getting involved with it is a risk.

The ASLEF position is also understandable. Zero hours crews, are the thin end of a wedge that could adversely affect all drivers.

I suspect that WCR will just keep recruiting retired drivers, as it largely does now, and steam train them as necessary.

 

I would join you in funding and the building

 

Yes, but do they actually train them? Many of the current crop of West Coast drivers are I believe former EWS/DBS drivers and presumably that is where they got their training. However if DBS are not training new crews that source of expertise will soon dry up.

 

Not correct 6026. Whilst some of WCR's current steam drivers, are ex EWS, there are many who never worked for EWS, having gone to WCR from Sctorail, Northern, Trans Pennine, and Cross Country to name but a few. Without doing a physical count, I would say that the ex EWS men are not a majority. I may be wrong, but I cannot recall anyone from the EWS training programme from a few years ago who is currently driving for WCR, if there is, it is a very small number. Most of the current WCR drivers have either been trained and passed out in house or by an organisation called BR. So I don't think that WCR owe EWS much of a debt of gratitude for training drivers at all, and I don't think a lack of current DBS training would be a particular concern at present.

It is worth also noting that when you look at the number of former traction inspectors, driver managers, driver standards managers, and regional traction inspectors who are currently driving for WCR, and the aggregate years of driver management experience which they possess, there is probably a greater collective driver management experience at WCR than in some main stream TOC's.

just a thought!

regards
Bob

 

Agreed - I'm more than happy to be corrected by someone "in the know"

 

But I'll throw in one cautionary there, and this is in no way a reflection on anyone working for WCR, just a general observation. Length of time as a driver, or in any related job, is a very poor indication of anything. There are people who've only been driving a few months that are great, and there are 40 year blokes that you wouldn't let near a Hornby.