BR Standard class 6 No. 72010 'Hengist' and Clan Discussion Thread

One of the greatest assets of the Hengist project(as stated before) is that building it would both draw on and contribute to the tooling and knowledge associated with the continued maintainance of other large/ medium BR Standards, in the same way that 82045 will/has to the medium/small ones, so the thread isnt completely irrelevant.

You cant please all the people and especially their postulations all the time etc but going for the genuine wheel design is to be applauded. This wont be much use to any of the other BR/Ivatt Moguls if they ever crack a driving wheel but to my knowledge this would be a very unlikely event.

 

Sorry, but I really must insist that the BR3 wheel had 15 spokes. If the drawing you have in your possession shows 17 then the draughtsman is in error and you should check with another source to avoid a serious and expensive mistake. I was chatting to a bloke at an SVR gala a few years ago and the topic of wheels (and boilers) and he understood that there is a spare set of Ivatt/BR4 wheels in existance and the project had considered using them until it became clear that the BR3 wheels were different.

As for your advice "You are welcome to check it out at Highley", that is a little difficult as there isn't an original set of BR3 wheels in existance.

Regards

 

But there is a superb wooden pattern that will be used when the time comes, and it can be seen at Highley.

 

And if the wooden pattern is wrong...?

 

And if it has 17 spokes it needs to be changed to 15 before the wheels are cast.

Regards

 

I don't think it does, Orion.

I've just looked at a picture of a Bachmann Std Class 3 Tank - 17 spokes.

Now I'll put my faith entirely with Bachmann, but I also searched for a decent picture of a Class 3 in service - I could only find a Mogul rather than a tank, but here it is:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/barkingbill/3952749665/#/

Definitely 17 spokes, rear axle is the easiest to count them off on.

Let's be honest, the 82045 group will have done their homework - no-one is going to make an elaborate pattern such as that for a wheel without checking, and double checking (and probably triple-checking just for luck).

 

http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrt311.htm

Will the above do? It looks like 17 to me, but then maths was never my strong point...!

 

Someone should have a word with the builders of that loco - it definitely seems to have the wrong number of spokes! How on earth could they have made such a daft mistake!

 

The drawing we used is the original Swindon works copy. No. SL/SW/48 Dated 2nd January 1950 (leading, driving and trailing wheel centres), and SL/SW/188 20July 1950(arrangement of driving wheels). Quote from the drawing " Class 3 2-6-2 Tank and Class 3 2-6-0".

There is no argument! 17 SPOKES it is!

 

This is NatPres so no doubt someone will argue the toss in spite of what you've said. Original Swindon drawing is good enough for me though.

 

Well found S.A.C. Martin! The usual google images/flickr searches didn't throw that one up.

82045MS - I had imagined that you would be using the original drawings. Nice to know that our money is being spent properly!

 

Thank you Spamcan, you are right of course, some would argue with Robert Riddles if they could! Others prefer to listen to a "bloke" they met some years ago rather than contact us. We are very approachable try www.82045.org.uk for contacts - always happy to talk.

Regards
Barbara Massau
82045 membership secretary
82045 Trustee/director

 

Don't shoot the messenger...!

 

The truth of the matter is that the world wouldn't end even if you did decide on a different number of spokes to the original as long as the wheel were all of the right/same size. Good luck with the project.

 

Is this the first time you've ever referred to something from Swindon as being good enough...?! ;-)

 

Errrrm, with so much debate about which pattern of wheels are used on which locomotive, what can I say regarding Hengist, simply this. Unless the members decide otherwise at the forthcoming AGM, the specification for this new build project is to be as designed by Mr Riddles, except where improvements can be incorporated which do not affect the visible locomotive.
It is not a good idea to decide to cut corners just because we are building a single engine, who knows if another engine may need a new wheel of the same design, who knows if there could be another 6MT built. Part of our remit is to collect patterns/parts to support other Standard projects, either through BSLOG or not.
Thanks for all the posts and good luck to all the Standards projects.

 

Sir, SL/SW 48 Wheel Centre drawing for Std Class 3 Locomotives 77XXX and 82XXX Classes shows 17 spokes on the wheels. I think you owe Mr Oldford an apology.
Also the Std 4 2-6-0 wheelset that was available has a bigger diameter axle and, accordingley, the wheel centre boss is larger than the boss on the wheels used on the Std 3s.
Peter Winstanley, Drawings Co-ordinator BRSLOG.

 

Is the drawing a Swindon Drawing? I ask the question because a Swindon drawing on the matter of wheels is a secondary source. The wheels for all the BR standards were designed at either Crewe or Derby, I'm not sure which right now. I think the Swindon draughtsman made an assumption that the BR3 engines would have the same arrangement of spokes as the GW prairies ie 17 spokes. I counted the number of spokes visible on the BR official photos this morning and got 15.

As an amateur railway historian myself I learnt a long time ago to always check even official sources with another independant source. That Swindon drawing is wrong, and Mr Oldfield, by inexperience, has not verified its info from another source, like ... the photos of the machine.

Sorry, I owe nobody an apology, not at all.

 

right Count them on here im afraid it is 17.

 

If you are that clever, what is the relevant Derby drawing number for the wheels used on the 77s and 82s? I do not know it. The only drawing mentioned on the official drawings lists for the Std 3 Classes is SL/SW 48. Not one Standard Locomotive (SL) component was designed at Crewe. The only designed at Crewe components would be Ex-LMS parts used on Standard locos and they were few and far between. The only one I can think of, off the top of my head, is the superheater header for the Std Class 5 4-6-0s.
For the record the Std Locomotive wheels were designed at the following works: -
70, 71, 72, Derby SL/DE 19575
73 Derby SL/DE 20095 (use same pattern as 70 71 72)
75 Brighton SL/BR 72
76 Doncaster SL/DN/T-655/656 (They are slightly different than the Ivatt 4)
77 Swindon SL/SW 48
78 Derby SL/DE 20487/88
80 Brighton SL/BR 72
82 Swindon SL/SW 48
84 Derby SL/DE 20487/88
92 Derby SL/DE 20831/32/33.