Southern firing shovels

This is something that has cropped up a few times on this and other forums in passing but never really had a definate answer.

What type of firing shovels were used on the Southern Railway and subsequentally on the BR Southern region?

Forged shovels made by Lucas and Bulldog are well known to have been used on the LNER, LMS and later the BR Eastern, Midlands and (presumably) Scottish regions. I have seen forged shovels stamped LNER, LMS, BR (E), BR (M) and later ones stamped just 'BR' from both major manufacturers. Lots of variations in exact blade dimensions and shaft angle (Easterns generally being sharper angled) but generally all quite similar in size and shape.

GWR and BR (W) shovels are quite different but equally well documented, being of pressed steel open socket construction and enormous in comparrison to the Eastern and Midland forged ones. Again I've seen Lucas and Bulldog examples of GWR and BR (W), all very similar.

But Southern!!?? I've heard a pressed steel design was used but closer to the size of the M and E types, ie. much smaller blade than a western. This suggests something similar to the modern pressed designs used on most preserved lines these days. John Beesley claims his are made to an original pattern; they are clearly pressed steel but not of Western proportions, so perhaps these are what Southern shovels were like? However a comment a few years ago on another forum suggested the author had seen a southern forged shovel on the NYMR in the past but no-one else could confirm seeing one. Perhaps it was stamped BR (S) meaning Scottish region - never seen one like that but just a thought.

So... can anyone shed any light on this? Did the Southern use pressed shovels, forgings, or a mixture? Who manufactured them? Perhaps some of the later BR Lucas shovels (with no region marked but identical to the BR (M) design) found their way onto the Southern region? Why do none ever crop up for sale, and seem to be such a rarity? Does anyone have a photo of any known Southern firing shovel, or better still, anyone willing to sell me one?

I guess the extensive electrification of SR will have contributed to few shovels surviving to 1968 and beyond.

Anyway, any info much appreciated! Thanks!

Ben.

 

I have seen a BR (S) lucas made shovel - it was quite broad with a fairly flat angle from blade to handle and although i never used it in anger i remember it as 'feeling' right. ie. well balanced and neither too heavy or two light (getting coal in the back corners with the reg open using a light weight shovel is 'interesting'!!)
be nice to get one for when 35006 comes along.

 

Ahhh, is that one of the reasons for heavy shovels. Both Dutch and German shovels were much lighter than Lucas shovels. I noticed the difference with the Lucas shovel we have at the SHM (vaRnished and with inscription on it)

I have fired “sir Nigel” once (with the "standard" NYMR/ R.Carter shovel) and getting to the back corners was challenging. This had something to do with being used to small Dutch loco’s (0-4-0 and 0-6-0) but now I see the use for the heavier (forged) shovel then just pressed steel (of whatever thickness).

Where forged shovels always used in the UK, or did that start / expand with to use of wide fireboxes?

FYI, German shovels are even thinner then the R. Carter shovels (but also much bigger), I have not seen any original Dutch shovel yet, but steam ended in the late '50 in the Netherlands, so that is quite a while ago.

 

Thanks for the replies.

Andy - was the BR (S) Lucas a forging or a pressed type?

 

It was at least 5 years ago but i'm leaning towards it being pressed. As an aside we had a good meeting with the 35006 group at toddington yesterday and although it is still some 12 - 15 months (all being well) i'm really getting rather excited.

 

I Have Shovel Marked Up Lucas BR (S) A nd Its Pressed Steel The End Has Been Reprofiled A Few Times But Its A Rather Nice Job.

 

Some years ago I was given a BR(S) shovel by a retired colleague of mine from Eastleigh. I subsequently passed it on to a friend as I already have a Lucas BR(M) shovel which I use. I can't recall if the Southern shovel was a Lucas product but was definitely stamped BR(S) and was pressed steel, I recall it was wider than the Midland type but narrower than the WR ones.

 

I have 2 lucas BR S shovels and they are pressed steal. Rather shallow blade, but long. They are perfect you wide boxes like a west country. They are good for long boxes too, because you can fill the back up quickly and concentrate on the rest of the firebox, knowing that in only a few shovelfuls you will have rebuilt the back end. Found this out on 30777.
The shovel is lightweight for its size and a pleasure to use. Get one, but be prepared to pay top dollar!