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48624

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 46118, Jan 17, 2009.

  1. chrisj94

    chrisj94 New Member

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    Well,I spent a while working on the 'eight' this evening after college,and I must say it looks fantastic.
    While I've not spent nearly as much time as others on the loco,I have put a few weekends into it,and I do find it rather frustrating to see such petty comments about the paint.
    Over 20 years of restoration work,and the only thing that brings any interest to the loco in it's final stages is the bloody colour?!
    Why didn't we just paint it red 10 year ago and be done with it?
    If you choose not to come and see it because of the said livery,then that is your loss,but I'm just very happy to see it work!
     
  2. Phil Jones

    Phil Jones Member

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    Preservation: To keep or maintain in unaltered condition.
    Restore / Restoration: To return to its original condition.
    Heritage: Practices that are handed down from the past by tradition


    I think a lot of people on here are missing the point. Especially the younger ones. As far as I’m concerned, the whole point of steam railways is to preserve and recreate the past as best we can. I’m sorry but a red 8F doesn’t come anywhere close to the above (Preservation, Restore, Heritage). I fail to see the point of painstakingly restore a loco just to paint it in some fake livery it never ever carried. Look at it another way, would any of you spend a large amounts of time and money to hand build a 7mm model loco, getting it as accurate as you possibly can to the real thing, just to paint it pink with yellow spots. I think not. I’m only 25 myself so unfortunately I wasn’t around for the golden age of steam. The part I enjoy most about our hobby is seeing something “How it was”.

    Just going back to kieranhardys comment.. He said “This is preservation, a newer era, why can't changes be made”. Well simply Kieran, If you make drastic changes such as like this one, Its simply not preservation.

    And with regards to your other comment.. “I couldn't give a toss if either was in bright yellow with smiley faces on” well Kerian, I think the “Preservation” world would be a lot better off without the likes of yourself around. To me your comments above just shows you don’t really care about what your trying to “Preserve”.

    As for the “lets paint everything BR Livery” debate (5690 and 6233 spring to mind), well that’s another matter and completely different to issues discussed above.
     
  3. Western Bulleid

    Western Bulleid Part of the furniture

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    Preserved railways don't just aim for the hardcore enthusiast market you know. How about families and other casual visitors who really aren't fussed how historically accurate a loco's paint job is. I'd have though as a family seeing a big pristine red engine on the front is far more impressive than a grubby looking black one.

    OK it isn't historically accurate but oh dear. Go and see an 8F somewhere else that is. If every loco of every class was painted the same livery (and the 8F class is a good example) then I'd get bored quite quickly. A red 8F just adds a little spice and variety to the steam scene in this country, yet everyone seems to hold it against the group for doing this.

    I'm just glad another steam engine has returned to traffic and I may well take a trip to Peak Rail when I can to see it, as it is unique and I for one wouldn't mind photographing it.

    As much as we want preservation to keep things 100% as they were it just won't happen. This is the 21st century. If we wanted preservation to be completely accurate surely no railway would have a locomotive works at what used to be a little country station. However we have to adapt slightly and give a little to get a lot more in return.
     
  4. James

    James Part of the furniture

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    What a complete and utter load of gibbering paint froth and rubbish. Kieran is a genuine and generous enthusiast, and contributes a lot to his local societies. Perhaps if you actually got involved in an ex-Barry restoration, then you would realise your view of "preservation" is nothing more than a deluded fallacy. Most "preserved" locos (even the ones painted using colours matched to BR's own from paint chips scraped out of the ash of shed yards) are little more than boiler, frames, wheels, and cylinders. Added to this is the fact that 3 of those were commonly swapped out during overhaul, and what do you have? Not originality! For all intents and purposes, 48624 is a new locomotive, and since you contributed the massive sum of £0 towards the restoration, your opinion is pointless, worthless, and to put it bluntly: pathetic. Your kind are the people that the preservation scene could do with less of, not Kieran's!
     
  5. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Liveries again ! What would Nat Pres have said about the early days of 'Steamtown' Carnforth? Fairburns in Caley blue and LNWR blackberry black, 6441 in Red, a green black five and 5407 in Furness red. I well remember working very late one evening with Peter Beet on 5407. His view was that 'the railway magazines will go beserk over this and the amount of free publicity we'll get will be super!' He was right too!

    The kerfuffel over this reminds me of those halcyon days!! Good luck to the red 48624, long may the controversy continue and I hope you make lots of dosh from it !!!!
     
  6. Sheff

    Sheff Resident of Nat Pres

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    Hear hear 60017. I worked on the KWVR as a lad when most loco's were in ficticious liveries. We had a great time and so did our visitors. There's plenty of room for both approaches, but we should never forget that it's Joe Public who's by far the major sponsor of our hobby today, not a few photographers, and we forget that at our peril.

    Iain
     
  7. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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    And just possibly that is why the operator of the most successful main line public steam services, year after year, will not tolerate anything but BR colour schemes.

    Its what the market reacts to best.
     
  8. 60017

    60017 Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Who are the operators and which market?
     
  9. fentmar

    fentmar New Member

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    Fair game to the guys for putting it " out there" and painting it red. Easy to sit here and whinge if you don't like the photo you get to take but when a few volunteers have slogged for 20 yrs on a project its there call and not ours what colour it goes.

    I hope its running in goes well and that all the graft is worth while- great to see another Barry engine return from the dead!
     
  10. Phil Jones

    Phil Jones Member

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    James, you obviously don’t have the intelligence or maturity to understand the point of my post. I have tried to make it idiot proof, but seeing as you have managed to misunderstand me, obviously I never. My post wasn’t a personal attack on Kieran. I was highlighting the fact that a person who “couldn't give a toss” whether a loco was painted bright yellow with smiley faces” is not going to do the preservation world any favours in keeping things authentic for future generations As I have stated before, Preservation is about recreating the past to the best of our abilities. As for Joe public, I would of thought they deserve the closest recreation we can possible give them to a by-gone era. By all means paint your heavy goods engines pretty colours, just don’t try to past them off as a “Heritage” railway, which they just aren’t.

    As for my personal contributions to the Preservation world, I suggest you get your facts right before you criticise “my kind”, as you have no idea what you are talking about.
     
  11. Guest

    Guest Part of the furniture Account Suspended

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  12. Matt78

    Matt78 Well-Known Member

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    Preservation is about more than coats of paint, it's about preserving operating skills, how to fire an 8F, how to repair it, these guys are/will be doing all that whatever the colour.

    To the volunteers who worked so hard on the loco, it will never be just another 8F, so why shouldn't they paint the thing in such a way that it stands out, gives them a bit more publicity and profile?
    I doubt whether it will stay red forever.....

    And then once it's black again we can fondly remember the time an 8F was painted red, and marvel at the pictures!
     
  13. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    5322 Isn't as controversial as it actually carried the Khaki in the past, we all know preservation can never be 100% authentic but it concerns me that joe public on seeing the loco will think that is how is actually was, like i said earlier, the owners can paint it however they wish but is it right to be passing it off as in preserved condition when it just isn't ?.

    Paignton for example is far from authentic, but Paignton makes no attempt to pass itself off as preservation, they set their stall out from the beginning as a tourist operation, when does something cease to be preserved and bcome a pure tourist attraction ?.
     
  14. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    Phil, Kieran, James...

    You guys are painting this forum red, please use the PM button to vent off.

    Forget painting the 8F red, it will peel off with these messages !
     
  15. Kerosene Castle

    Kerosene Castle Well-Known Member

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    I don't think that they are, are they? Though you have to ask yourself, what is more misleading for the public; seeing a particular engine painted in a particular style which that particular class never carried, or seeing a great big express engine meandering slowly along a branch line with half a dozen coaches behind it?

    Which scenario creates the more distorted view of history?
     
  16. david1984

    david1984 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Fair point, though im not sure the ex Derby - Manchester mainline falls into Branch Line status.
     
  17. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    There was no rule book that said an 8F has to be black, unless you try you will never know how it might have been. I applaud your groups originality and will definitely be there to see it once it's ready. As you said 20years to make it work, a few weeks to paint it, personally I'd be thrilled to see it experimented to Southern green, an NE Version, WD Version who knows I'd like to see a steam locmotive painted BR Blue with double arrows and yellow buffer beams... and then left to get a bit dirty

    There's eight 8f's in the UK and at least another four on there way, so why not play with one of them.

    As for preservation, there are hundreds of castles converted to homes, Routemasters running on LPG (and not painted red), Industrials pretending to BR, Thomas the Tank engine and Hogwarts Express.. yet no one is burning strawmen and drowning witches over this ?
     
  18. Kerosene Castle

    Kerosene Castle Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I wouldn't really class an 8F as an express engine either.
     
  19. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    Nooooo!!!! Don't mention them or the thread locking police will .............. Ah, wait a minute ....... :-#
    Maybe that is where we are going wrong! =D>

    Going back on topic, how do people feel that the finished restoration of 8624 compares with the job done on 34059? I have a very definite personal preference, but can see the merits in both.
     
  20. Kempenfelt 82e

    Kempenfelt 82e New Member

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    I would like to add my support to the group who has been restoring 48624, what a magnificent job you have done especially with the facilities available!

    Laying my cards down on the table I am another BR livery fan an was at first a little dissapointed to see it being repainted into red. I like Kingham Branch thought it would have been going into BR Black and that the initial rumours were just that, with the intension to raise her profile before the launch back into traffic. After seeing the whole story unfold I feel that the Peak Rail guys have actually been very clever here. Painting the 8f has made a very bold statement, bound to upset the purist (I include my self as one of these!), but like has been mentioned elsewhere, it is really makes the relauch of the 8f headline new as appose to just another 8f. This thread must be the busiest thread on Nat Pres at the moment and is doing wonders for Peak Rail's publicity and will continue to do so as more and more photo's and discussions apear elsewhere. Also to the general public I believe a red 8f will really catch their eye as appose to a black 8f. After all the fuss has died down i'm sure this little bit of variation would have more than earn't the cost of a repaint several times over and then it can be relaunched again in a more authentic colour creating another wave of publicity, hopefully then bringing in the enthusiasts who will boycott her in the current paint job as well as many others! It's all about making the most of her while you can before being lost in the pool of the rest of the preserved loco's. Look how the news on Tornado has gone fairly quiet in recent times, until she gets painted into blue that is!

    I would like to add that this publicity doesn't only benefit the 8f but should do wonders for Peak Rail. I have visited this line several times before and alway make a point of stopping by when I can. The volunteers I have talked to have made no efforts to hide that there is an awful lot of work to be done on this railway with a very limited number of them available. This I feel is a shame as I think it is probably the one preserved railway with the most potential of improvement. The scenery must be some of the most beautiful going as you pass over Miller's Dale and through the Chee Tor tunnels. Also the space available at Rowsley for the engine sheds and goods sidings could be unrivaled, especially in an original condition.

    Anyway, good luck to all the folks at Peak Rail and many congratulations. I look forward to seeing the 8f soon and even more so when it returns to black!

    In the meantime as this is my first post (although I have been monitoring the site for over a year) I hope I haven't managed to upset anyone already!

    Paul
     

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