The future of main line steam

You'd be surprised just how many familes there are on them each weekend. We sell plenty of colouring books anyway! :smt002

Its quite an eclectic mix of enthusiasts, more mature travelers and families. Its wide appeal I think is that there is something for everyone, plus the regular pathing is a big plus.

FC

 

I am not sure this would be a "return" - yes, there have always been trips like this (the old BR days Cumbrian Mountian Express and Cumbrian Coast Express tended to start out diesle hauled, but also had though ticketing via scheduled services) but I would have said that the number of trips with steam doing less than half or even only a quarter of the total mileage have increased in the past decade. This is not surprising as steam has returned to busier routes and these routes have become busier, so achieving a path two ways becomes more difficult.

However, I would argue that a return to trips that were steam both ways is more what should be considered. It is interesting that all the repeat itineries are done on this basis. Why is this? Well, I would suggest that having a second loco is simply an increase in costs - the steam fee will be no less but the cost of proviging a diesel (or electric) must now be £3,000 to £5,000. Costs are further added to as any second loco will probably have to shadow the tour, as it probably took the stock to the starting point/where steam takes over and then needs to be at the other end of the steam section. Again, look at the repeat itineries - they usually start out from where the stock is stabled. Steam Dreams trip are a little different in that a diesel is needed to position stock in London, and sometimes works one way but probably doesn't at least half the time, but doesn't seem to be generally used during the day, saving a crew and fuel.

Steam Dreams does seem to have the best, most reliable model - a very extensive programme of tours, which appear varied but generally use a number of repeated itineries, usually not the same one immediately after each other but mixed through the programme. The days are usually reasonable length, the destination worth visiting (important but getting there is part of the experience!)

Compare this to some recent trips by other tour operators - the one that sticks in my mind is a trip from Cardiff to Newcastle with Tornado from York - a 5:00 am start in Cardiff and a return after midnight - bet that was dedicated enthusiasts only!

The other problem is that many tours start from the same place - London. Tours starting (as opposed to running through) pther parts of the country, particularly the North (specifically Yorkshire and the North East) have been rare until the initial Tornado programme and will presumably now be rare again - and I know there will be plenty of other examples of this. I can see the reason - tours start from where the stock is based, so presumably there will be more tours from Hampshire in future!

 

That's good to hear. As I said, I've not been on one, so was only guessing. I suppose the excitement of a trip to the beach might mean the little terrors sleep on the way back and give the parents a rest! If PTR were keen to expand the programme, then they could always introduce a mid-week run and see how it goes. It just depends how big the market is.

 

If you are aiming at a family market then mid week is usually best avoided, I would imagine such a trip to be a 'one off' and not part of a 'holiday week'. You should assume one or both parents would be working midweek preventing family outings. There will of course be some exceptions to this. I have always felt that midweek trips are best aimed at the retired and enthusiast markets. We must however remember that the retired market will change soon and move away from those that remember steam the first time around . . .

With regard to the Torbay Express trips, of which I have been aboard many I do feel there is some room for expansion of this popular excursion but not with the introduction of mid week offerings. The Christmas runs appear to have proved popular and I was surprised not to see an Easter 'Eggspress' offering . . . this would also have provided a great marketing opportunity for the forthcoming summer season.

With the development of the turntable at Minehead I hope this excellent family resort will be visited more often by steam excursions - perhaps from South Wales or Gloucester with pick up at Bristol?

 

Yes I know I am taking this out of the writers original context, but the same applies to other cities, which is why I find it surprising that the tour operators don't make greater use of National Rail's 'Parkway' stations for en-route pick-up/set-down.
Obviously little use as the start or end point, usually in the middle of no-where ( that's why they're there ) and rarely rail-side facilities like sidings/passing loops, but fine for those who don't want to start their trip with an extra journey to Manchester/London etc., and then sometimes find there is no way 'home' from that city centre ( except taxi ) when their late running special arrives after the last train/bus out.

 

The Torbay works rather well in terms of destination and starting point, only crit i could throw at it is it would be difficult to get to Bristol in time if you don't live relatively near.

On the one off tour side, i think variation is the key, i'd love to support Vintage Trains more than other tour companies what with being local etc, but there's only so many times i have the desire to visit Chester & York.

 

I never go on rail tour just because of the early start time and the late finish time. The only time I've been be hind a steam loco on the main line was when the MHR run very short trips from Alton to Ash vale and back with 73096 on a Saturday & Sunday back in the late 90s. If I remember right the cost of the trip was £10.00 not a bad price for a one hour round trip. These trips were very well attended by the general public. Anyone else go on these shuttles back in the 90s.

 

A handful of locos that have a proven record.
Tours that in the past have proven successful i.e.
The Jacobite
Shakespeare express
VSOE
Torbay
Cotton Mill
Cumbrian Mountain Express
Plus others with some one off tours

With the network becoming very overcrowded, tour paths will become very limited, even more limited than nowadays.
It also depends on whether customers, not enthusiasts will pay to go on the tours.

 

PTR did run the Dawlish Donkey a few years ago on a daily basis in July and August they ran from Exeter to Paignton and return, the first couple of years they were well supported then the numbers gradually drifted away some trains ran nearly empty and they stlopped.

 

Would it be fair to say Past Time were not as experienced in the business then as they are now? Perhaps a properly marketed regular Paignton - Exeter with stops in-between steam service would appeal to tourists and enthusiasts today? Day Rover, get on/off any stop type thing?
One thing is sure, more people will be holidaying in the SW this year, and with the pound-euro, more foreigners will be coming here too.
I remember a pannier with 6 on was fantastic!!, so way Riley's pocket rocket.
Must be worth another try?

 

90 Minutes by steam from London, (I think I put this earlier):

Windsor, Syon Park
Hampton Court
Southend / Thurrock
St Albans
Gerards Cross / Denham


All short distance, multiple trips in a day.

If I suggested taking my wife going to Exeter by steam train in 6 hours.. we will never go. Take a regular train in 3.. we will, however any of the above in 60-90 minutes we would go and definitely by steam ! and probably more than once.

As for Manchester:

1. Chester
2. Liverpool
3. Blackpool
4. Buxton

Cotton Mill has a limited life in my opinion, it goes no where, sits in fields for hours (or blackburn), it only appeals to enthusiasts, but as we have seen.. same engine every week leads to cancelations.

Birmingham has already cracked it.. when was the last time a Shakespeare to Stratford was canceled to lack of interest ???

From a business perspective, Enthusiasts need to stop idolising engines and the idea of a steam engine and replace it with a thought that it's an engine that pulls a train to a destination and back, oh and it's steam.. because thats how the public see it.. More thinking along the lines of "here's a service with a unique aspect that goes to a place of interest" then the £ will start rolling in. I'm not saying the Cotton Mill is a bad idea.. as an Enthusiast I love it, and it should continue, but the real money is beyond this idea and could subsidize the fun aspects such as the enthusiast's long days out.

 

They would be ideally suited for a branch line operation though, and one with pulic appeal. Perhaps a summer service from Penzance to St Ives with a number of return trips a day? Or indeed other holiday branches still part of the national network?

Personally as an enthusiast I would love to see a Pannier on the Avon branches and onto Portbury Dock . . . or even onwards to Portishead oneday!

I have had some great mainline runs behind panniers on the main, just a shame the number or trips are so limited. No doubt their lower speed limits their route availibility.

 

Shame steam on the met finished, it was short with several locos taking turns with 2 trains, I think that there were about 6 round trips, with running needing to be at 50mph to keep clear of the tin worms. Also good for preserved railway crews, they got the chance to run at speed crewing their own engines.

 

Past Time Rail organised an Easter weekend of Cornish branch tours with a couple of Tyseley's panniers about six or seven years ago. It was advertised & they produced a special leaflet but, IIRC, it all fell through over EWS charges. The plan was to move them down there by road.

It must still be feasible even if the Newquay branch has shrunk for Castles & Britannias?

 

I think the biggest problem with the Devon and Cornish branches is lack of infrastructure. None of the passenger branches have runround loops at the terminus end (I am excluding Barnstaple), and would involve some shunting at the other end (Par is easiest - there is a loop). They also tend not to have passing loops - Newquay has and Falmouth either has just had a loop put in or will shortly. Looe and St Ives are effectively long sidings.

Given the very limited infrastructure, they also have very intensive services. St Ives will definitely have no capacity - it is the "Park and Ride" for the town (unique in the UK?) Although I believe FGW had to cut the service on the Looe branch, it is still pretty intensive and and doubt paths exist for steam.

This is all, of course, before you look at the costs of topping and tailing and the very short trains that could be used. It is a great idea but I don't think it could work.

It is also ignoring the potential effect on nearby heritage railways (see a thread on here that discussed The Cambrian in this respect, as the argument can cut both ways).

Ironically, larger English termini are probably better equipped - places like Blackpool, Scarborough and Cleethorpes have runround facilities and even possibilities for turning locos (probably not Cleethorpes - and I believe Network Rail are planning to totally close the railway to the resort for the summer season for track renewals - obviously, this is a good way to prevent inconventient seasonal traffic from getting this silly idea that the Railway is there for their use or benefit!)

 

I'm sure you remember Stu in Torbay the Dawlish Donkey's did have stops in between you could get on at any station including Dawlish Warren and the fares were very reasonable too, well I thought, you could buy return or one way, I was sorry to see them go, PTR did produce leaflets that were on show at the stations, perhaps a poster advertising the trains would have been more noticeable.

 

The Dawlish Donkey was given a fair chance with journey variations and good advertising, bit baffling why it didn't work really.

 

quote Ironically, larger English termini are probably better equipped - places like Blackpool, Scarborough and Cleethorpes have runround facilities and even possibilities for turning locos (probably not Cleethorpes - and I believe Network Rail are planning to totally close the railway to the resort for the summer season for track renewals - obviously, this is a good way to prevent inconventient seasonal traffic from getting this silly idea that the Railway is there for their use or benefit!)[/quote]

with cleethorpes you do have a triangle about 10 miles away for turning locos this is at habrough/ulceby/brocklesby which is not to far away. and yes the line is shut this summer between scunthorpe and doncaster but you can use the other two ways to get to cleethorpes gainsborough and brigg or lincoln,

cleethorpes to new holland is about 20 miles, a run for small tank engine on this route would be nice.

mark