If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Sir Nigel Gresley - The L.N.E.R.’s First C.M.E.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, Dec 3, 2021.

  1. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Probably your best bet for these questions is found here: https://www.lner.info/locos/IC/kitson.php
     
    maddog likes this.
  2. D6332found

    D6332found Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2016
    Messages:
    361
    Likes Received:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Dinting
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Wish I'd written down about the Still engine. No mention was adequate of noise but was pretty reliable on a daily.freight I think to Hull and back. The problem was starting it, iirc was blowlamps to heat up the dieael cylinders I assume the cylinder head or a warm semi diesel type glow area but memory is very hazy.. There may be some footage on YouTube of a boat one, sounds like an old diesel
     
    maddog likes this.
  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    upload_2023-2-5_11-37-1.png

    This week coming, I am giving a lecture on Gresley at the MRC of London.

    I will be discussing some of the research I have undertaken for my upcoming Gresley book together with a closer look at the data of each of Gresley's individual locomotive designs for the G.N.R. and L.N.E.R. eras. There will be some interesting comparisons made and some new revelations. I am also showcasing some new images that will make it into the book.

    https://www.themodelrailwayclub.org/events/sir-nigel-gresley-simon-martin/

    It is quite loco-centric, so understandably won't be for everyone! But I hope it will generate some thoughtful debate.
     
    Richard Roper and paullad1984 like this.
  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    57EF2C68-79BC-4394-B9E7-07B2E7D55B6A.jpeg

    063BE0A5-B1EF-46A4-9E80-3B13C37E0601.jpeg

    26892048-2037-4080-B406-D14D1854ADBE.jpeg

    Full video will be shared by the MRC in due course. I think it was well received! For those able to watch and attend, thank you for all the interesting questions, answers and support of my research.
     
    mgl, clinker, mdewell and 2 others like this.
  5. Victor

    Victor Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2006
    Messages:
    13,773
    Likes Received:
    7,940
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    DEWSBURY West Yorkshire
    A friendly word............a shade more modesty wouldn't go amiss.
     
  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I was asked to share these photographs on the thread, I didn't take them.

    I was happy to put them out there, one of the shots shows Ian McCabe's excellent colourisations and the other is a good shot of the way I was showing the primary evidence for the use of Engine Power statistics.

    Hope that clarifies this for you.
     
    simon, mgl, Fred Kerr and 5 others like this.
  7. Belgarath001

    Belgarath001 New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2012
    Messages:
    93
    Likes Received:
    239
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Please make sure to post a link to the video when shared, much prefer to watch recordings than live!

    And this is your thread on your research, you should be proud to post yourself and your hard work. As someone who only started looking more deeply into the hows, whys and history of steam engines in the last couple of years, this thread and the Thompson one before it, has led to a great deal of discussion that has greatly expanded my knowledge and understanding. So thanks for being the catalyst for that.
     
    Sheff, mgl, mdewell and 4 others like this.
  8. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2006
    Messages:
    8,239
    Likes Received:
    5,250
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Freelance photo - journalist
    Location:
    Southport
    It has also benefitted IMHO from allowing the experiences of men "on the footplate / at the coal face" to provide further flesh to the skeleton of statistics
     
    Belgarath001 and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  9. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Question for the audience...

    What was Britain's first streamlined express passenger locomotive?

    I know what I think it was, but I would be interested to see the general consensus.
     
  10. 62440

    62440 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    4A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    6014?
     
  11. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Feb 19, 2023
  12. 62440

    62440 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    4A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Was the W1 streamlined or just an odd shape?
     
  13. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Streamlined, with draughting of the chimney the major factor. The shape was modified repeatedly based on wind tunnel tests. It was highly scientific. So yes, it was streamlined.
     
  14. 62440

    62440 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    4A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It may well have been scientific but wasn’t the key factor clearing exhaust from the cab rather than streamlining as such?
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,099
    Likes Received:
    57,414
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    A French “coupe vente” (“wind cutter”) loco from the 1880s. Note the wedge front and cab; in-fill between chimney and dome; and wooden segments filling in the wheels (rather like a cyclist’s disc wheel to reduce drag from the spokes).

    FFA79130-4D7C-49AC-AC5E-13465E56D44B.jpeg

    More early streamlined locos here: http://www.douglas-self.com/MUSEUM/LOCOLOCO/bec/bec.htm

    Whether or not they were objectively successful in reducing wind resistance, they were designed with that intention.

    Tom
     
    Richard Roper and Bluenosejohn like this.
  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As I said earlier, it was the principal reason, but the actual shape of the casing across the locomotive was aerodynamically driven, hence it was indeed, streamlined.

    [​IMG]

    E82C59FF-4312-438F-9108-BD0CA2D1A263.jpeg

    Top locomotive, designed through wind tunnel experimentation, has four years of development work, comes out in 1929.

    Bottom loco, no scientific basis for the streamlining whatsoever, comes out in 1935.

    Lovely, but not British Tom. :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2023
  17. 62440

    62440 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2020
    Messages:
    142
    Likes Received:
    316
    Location:
    4A
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Why go to all that trouble with wind tunnel tests instead of just investing in some plasticine? (Not a serious comment.)
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It does make the point though, I think!
     
    62440 likes this.
  19. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2006
    Messages:
    11,930
    Likes Received:
    10,088
    Occupation:
    Gentleman of leisure, nowadays
    Location:
    Near Leeds
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    10000 was not streamlined nor ever intended to be. In William Brown's book on the locomotive he mentions a reference from September 1928 to the front end and contained in the file held in the NRM. He states that the front end was designed essentially to duct primary air to the firegrate, around the boiler casing and down the backhead to the ashpan rear. The front end, as built would have created an air dam between those smoke delflectors (or whatever you want to call them) forcing the air to both where it was wanted and to lift any drifting smoke. The lack of a bottom plate to the smokebox front(as provided on the A4's) was another indication that streamlining was far from the design teams mind. The shape of the casing essentially followed the shape of the boiler and was not designed to be air smoothed. Any attempt at even the slightest streamlining certainly didn't reach to the cab which was flat fronted. Even the GWR realised that a wedge shaped cab front was better than a flat one in this respect.

    With regard to wind tunnel experiments, without going back and reading Browns book again, after a quick trawl through, I can find no mention of wind tunnel experiments regarding this loco. Indeed, the original proposal of 1928 had a conventional A1 front end with the Yarrow boiler simply substituting for the conventional boiler.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2023
    Jamessquared and 60017 like this.
  20. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,185
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Given that he boiler was water tube rather than fire tube the shape was bound to be different.
     
    S.A.C. Martin likes this.

Share This Page