The future of main line steam

I think the demand / tour balance is right and in fact there is potential for even more.

To me the problem is costs are not optimised, and marketing (outside of enthusiasts) is poor if not non-existent in some places.
The product is also not aimed at non-enthusiasts....
To me the problem is railtours serve a market of railway enthusiasts, who have a decreasing circle of cash and at some point we need to be brave and stride out from being an isolated tourism group.

for example... Manchester to Blackpool for mid-week school trips in the summer ?, Market this to all manchester area schools, carry kids by steam train one way, by coach the other... that way it's cheaper for the school dayout and doubles number of passengers ? and parents dont have to think about both picking up and dropping off the kids, it could start from Stockport, all major stations to Bolton, and off to Blackpool, I think a regular Blackpool steam run will be more successful than the Cotton Mill, especially if it did more than 1 round trip in a day, or maybe it should just shuttle between Preston and Blackpool ?, or a top/n/tail service from Blackpool Pleasure Beach Station even ?

York, probably Britiains 3rd biggest tourist city, and their major portal is www.visitYork.org, but there is no mention of any railtouirs on the daily diary of events ? are there any leaflets in the York area tourist information officies ?

To me there is only really a few truly well marketed non-enthusiast oriented railtours.. and one of them is the highest revenue generating one (VSOE), other examples such as Tyseley's operation to Stratford are very well marketed, when I Birmingham i'm always falling over publicity about their trips, and the ones Ive been on were well patronised as a result !

If you truly want the public market.. you need a train that starts centrally, has a destination no more than 2 hours away, gives people a full day out, and takes them home at night...(strangely enough thats what normal people do on a weekend on a regular train).. however put a steam engine on front, you will get preference and people will pay more. The general public dont want a train full of anoraks counting the lumps of coal being loaded in a siding in some yard where they cannot get off the train and have to spend 2 hours looking at a goods van, wondering if it will make up the 2 hours of delays and if they will actually leave the station at the destination.

 

Not being a regular passenger on steam excursions,
I am probably not the best qualified to comment but
there does sound a lot of sense in the above comment.

Like all enthusiasts, I love to see steam on the main line,
but I am fully aware that these trips don't run on fresh air.
The costs both financial and in time, are probably far higher than
the run of the mill enthusiast (like me), realises.

So a reduced number of trips, makes a lot of sense.

 

Just Google the Number and Name of any Mainline loco and you will have your answer.
Although I would have thought the question is pretty superfluous.

 

Where are the crews going to come from, esp. drivers?

That's going to be the killer...

 

The public's awareness of Steam engines is gradually changing. With the release of Tornado into traffic a great number of people were shown that Steam does still exist in this country. As such, new volunteers have started turning up almost weekly, wanting to get involved with the heritage scene.

It is only a matter of time before more people find their way into preservation. Times are always changing and so are trends.

With better advertising of steam tours and with greater possitive public awareness, there is no reason why volunteers or support crew members might become thin on the ground in the future.

 

A few words of advice for anyone who is thinking of applying to become a support crew member on a mainline Loco.
First, think carefully about the amount of time you are willing to give to the Society or Trust you are thinking of joining. Don't forget that in between trips on the mainline a lot of work has to be done in terms of preparation, ashpan & smokebox emptying,cleaning and polishing etc.
Then there is a financial contribution that has to be made. For insurance purposes you will have to become a member of the owning group,
and to obtain a PTS Certificate you will almost certainly be asked to make a substantial contribution to the costs of the course and the medical exam.
In my experience and seeing how other groups work there is a requirement that you will be assessed by the amount of work you put in before you are invited out onto the mainline and then it will be purely to observe how the crew work and to be chief tea maker and general dogsbody in the support coach before any consideration is given to putting you forward for a PTS course.
Don't forget that on the day of a trip it takes at least 3 hours to prep a loco before it even leaves the depot to join the train,so if an 8am departure is advertised you will have been at work since 5am and when you get back there will also be disposal to carry out.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to put people off joining a support crew, just pointing out some of the commitments you need to be willing to make. Since joining the TYS gang I have made some good friends and had some enjoyable times but in between there have been some long, hard,dirty days.
Above all you need to be able to work as a team member and to do whatever is asked of you.

 

Firemen aren't the problem - wc have a couple of youngsters off the Moors.

Drivers are a different problem. You can't just crash train someone from a heritage line. WC are basically retired guys, working part time. Drivers working for TOC's have two problems with getting involved there. Firstly, their main employer has to agree, and they are, after all, paying out a lot of money to maintain someone's competence. Secondly, ASLEF objects to drivers being employed on as and when basis, so will not represent anyone working for a charter company as a second job. This means you are taking a major risk with your livelyhood.

EWS is up in the air at the moment, so who knows what will happen there.

As for ex steam hands, to have been a passed cleaner, you will be over 60 now. You'd be pushed to find a substantive fireman under normal retiring age, and there are no drivers left.

 

Sorry, but try working that one through. It is like saying Farmers are subsidised. Farmers get subsidy so supermarkets can get away with paying less now than was paid 10 or more years ago for certian types of produce so we can buy cheap food. If the publoc had to pay the proper price of food production (to ethical standards), those who could pay would object and others couldn't afford to live.

Thankfully, railtours (and heritage railways) are not as essential as food (well, maybe not!!!), but the same applies. If loco owners push up the price of hiring their loco, they will either not get the work or if they all do it, the tour operators will only have one choice - increase fares. Are passengers willing to pay more to ride on the mainline? I suspect not (doesn't affect the price of standing in a field with a camera, mind....), so less tours will run, pushing up further what a loco needs per trip if less work is available.

The same applies to heritage lines - some loco owners will tell you how they are sick of subsidising heritage railways, and if the heritage lines put 20% on their ticket prices, then they could afford to to pay a "proper" fee. Yet experience shows a largely discretionery spend like a steam trip on main or heritage lines has a maximum price peeople will pay.

Tour operators take a very big risk organising a railtour and stand quite a cost if it is cancelled. The economics of steam are delicate and a slight push in the wrong direction can bring the whole thing crashing down. I am sure there have been and will be plenty of tours where the loco owner makes more than the tour operator - remember, the tour operator (not usually the TOC) takes the revenue (and cost) risk! I can also tell you there will have been plenty of occasions when heritage lines have run purely for the financial benefit of the provider of the locos running on given days (and, these days, probably the coal merchant!)

Where does this leave the "Future of Mainline Steam" - uncertain is the only word. The most sensible plan I have heard is spend more on the next round of loco overhauls to "reset" boiler life to like new and expect (hope?) to have the next couple of overhauls at lower cost, but that is could be risky and for many unaffordable option.

 

You have made some good points here,however you seem to have forgotten about Steam Dreams? In my experience they strike a very good balance in appealing both to the enthusiast and general public market.From travelling on many of their trips I would say the mix is normally around 30% enthusiast and 70% general public.They normally go to somewhere like Exeter,Bath or Norwich which will appeal to most people,and timings are generally fairly acceptable. They also have a policy of not cancelling trips due to poor loading which for me is very important. The only thing I don't like is that very "tired" WCRC green set of stock generally used,whose wheels seem to get squarer each trip!

 

hmm... If a train has to stop for water.. then I think in reality the journey may already be too far for the average person on the street as the balance between a regular train and a steam train has already been broken. The BBC showed extensive coverage of Tornado's run to London, but also quoted the journey time as being double that of the NXEC service.

Try it from this perspective... why would I take a canal boat to Birmingham from London, pay £100 for 10 days, no matter how nice and historical it might be, or how old or famous the boat ? Whilst watch the elderly boat owner run the thing at 5 mph because it used to be able to in the 19th Century and spend hours watching him reload coal.

However if I was in Birmingham, I'd probably take a canal boat tour across the city centre for an hour at 2 mph, pay £10 even if it was faster & cheaper by bus and the boat goes 10x a day ?

And from a Marketing perspective.. what would a travel agent reccomend to a group of visiting Asian tourists wanting to visit Birmingham ?, a 10 day boat trip, or a 1 hour boat trip ?

 

but were talking about railways here , not cannal boats ..... \/

Sorry , yes i see your point why try to market a 12 - 15 hour day to joe public and his family when he can travel on a bus for 20 mins to a nice local park with a swing and nice view.

I think if tour operators promotted shortter routes that didnt aim at the steam enthusiast then it could start to bring in the public who wouldnt even consider steam . I dont understand why tour operators dont work with local tourist operators and try to work together .

the tourist operator promotes a lovly 2 hour trip behind a steam engine to a gourgous destination and in return the steam operator gives out the tourists operators leaflets on the train which have some info on the local steam trips so both operators win.

 

I thought the whole point of something like Steam Dreams was a nice relaxed sort of day which attempts to re-create an age where the pace of life was slower! We all spend far too much of our lives being in a tearing hurry to get from A to B these days!
Seriously no-one who wants a day out in say Exeter or Bath and wants to get there quickly is going to do it by steam train. But for those who do the steam train is surely a major part of the experience even if it does take twice as long as a normal service train.

 

Recent experience with repeat short length repeat itineries has gone AGAINST the belief that these are the way forward, though i believe the destination and route are more key to a trains sucess than journey time.

Another problem is some of these nice destinations are in the middle of nowhere and the choice of decent destinations within a reasonable travelling time are limited, looking at London what nice destinations are within 90 mins or so travelling time ? maybe Canterbury at a push but struggling to think of others.

Minehead or Hertford North ? hmm...

 

I think you've hit the nail on the head. It's a tricky balance to strike for repeat itineries between the length of travel, the route / destination, and having a ready pool of potential passengers. It really is a fine line between success and failure.

The Jacobite should be successful, as it meets these criteria. It is a civilised day out with a sensible start and finish. It runs through stunning scenery to a destination that affords a view across to Skye and the Small Isles (if it's not misty). The length of time there is just enough to stretch your legs, enjoy the view, and have a bite to eat. The layover 'fits' the destination. Finally, there is a good turnover of tourists in the area, so you aren't reliant on repeat journeys by enthusiasts or locals. Also, there aren't many 'tourist attractions' in the area, that aren't just beautiful scenery, so the tourists are looking for things to do.

In contrast, something like the Cotton Mill could be successful, but is not so guaranteed. Again, the day out is a sensible length. It runs through pleasant scenery, although fairly industrial in places. The big problem for me, is that there is no destination, it is simply a circular steam trip. Therefore, if I was thinking of doing a steam trip as a family day out, I'd be more likely to go to a preserved line, which is more widely known about, cheaper, and offers more potential to incorporate other activities into the day. There is a large potential base of travellers located in the nearby cities, but how many of those would travel into the centre of Manchester for a steam trip vs. going to their local preserved line? Therefore, I think that the Cotton Mill will always rely on a reasonable number of enthusiasts to put bums on seats, and unfortunately there isn't enough loco variety to keep them coming back as regularly as they've been trying to run them.

All-in-all, I'm glad I'm not a tour operator because it is incredibly difficult to get everything right and find that winning formula that keeps filling seats. I suspect that there are very few repeat itineries that would work. For London, what about Oxford or Cambridge as a destination? When I lived in Oxford, it was rammed with tourists all through the summer, most of whom were on day trips from London. It's a busy line, but steam does run that way so pathing can't be impossible, there are sidings to store stock and a triangle at Didcot to turn the engine.

 

maybe a return to more frequently having steam for part of the trip rather than throughout? After all, with a diesel or electric you can path for 90 or 100mph running better acceleration and no need for water stops, so there's only really pathing to worry about

 

What about the Past Time Rail Torbay Expresses then?

That is quite a long day for the non enthusiast, but you have steam haulage out and back, stunning scenery, a holiday atmosphere and a layover at Kingswear where your average family can enjoy a few hours before the retun journey to return back at BTM at around 21.30.

Everyone I know who has travlled on it say they thoroughly enjoyed the day and would definately repeat it/pass it on to others.

FC

 

I think, so far, they've got the Torbays about right. If they tried to scale them up and run daily over the summer, then I'm not so sure, but there certainly seems the market there for the summer weekend trips. I've not travelled on one (it's a long way from Edinburgh), but I'd be surprised if there were that many young familys going for that long day out, so I suspect the market is not your typical bucket and spade family, but the more mature day-tripper? That's why I suspect the market is limited.