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Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. brmp201

    brmp201 Member

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    From the new website! - The Lynton & Barnstaple Railway - Parracombe appeal January 2023 (lynton-rail.co.uk)
     
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  2. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    I apologise if it came across as treating you as a 5 year old that is not what I intended. However I need you to believe me that 16 years ago along with all the members at the time, we where given the chance to move forward and we all took it.

    Like most of us back then it was sold to us as the best that could happen and it was then that things stopped being a waste of time or a laughing stock of meetings and real progress was made.

    We now have LYN and the heritage coaches which we didn't have back then so that is a great success, like 99% of the members yes I am disappointed we don't have a longer run and yes regarding landowners if they don't want to sell their land to us, then there is very little you can do about it.

    I guess that like most members we didn't expect to still be at this point of the railways development but at least a bit further on, you can see that outsiders don't understand the group structure and to be honest about it, do we really need all of them?

    I also apologise to Stuart if I upset him but if he had a problem with the old website why didn't he ask Keith or those who ran it to make it more user friendly or even better.

    From what I have seen I am told that every transaction made on this new site is going to cost the railway 70p each time, so let's assume that the new website has 10,000 transactions per year and each one costs the railway 70p, I make it that we have just given £7,000 to the new web company for nothing whereas with the old website we would have kept all that money to be ploughed back into the project?

    Can I take it you are of the generation that uses social media more than most of us old gits? So humour me if you will, but what is it that you look for on certain websites? I really would like to know.

    As you know a website is just a marketing and shop window tool for the company that owns/runs it and while some will disagree with me about it, the current version and it is my opinion after all, it has a long way to go before it is better that the one it has replaced. I do agree with Stuart that it will need some work doing to it, but to me it is missing that special 'look at me feel' about it does that make sense? We simply cannot afford to go backwards with such a website.

    As I haven't look for it on a smart phone yet, so I don't know what it will look like. But may be you could let us know if that is how you would normally view it.

    If this website is meant to work better as a smartphone app then it makes more sense, but if it is supposed to be the main website, then it has to a work in progress.

    Selling tickets on line is not the way to go forward for a heritage railway unless you expect to have huge crowds like Glastonbury/a rock concert/sports fixture to attend, one point which has not yet been made is you might need to have two people at the ticket office to deal with both those purchased on line and those purchased on the day.

    But the big question is who is it that will have to say to a family of four who have just turned up to have a ride only to be told that all the tickets have been pre-booked on line and you can't sell the tickets just in case those people do finally turn up.

    Also if I recall aren't all the tickets sold as an all day pass basis, which will make the situation even worst if on one day they are all pre-booked and yet we have car loads of people turning up to have a train ride and they can't buy a ticket. I can just see the comments on Tripadvisor right now.

    Can we at this stage afford to spend £7,000 pounds per year on a website that will drain money away from the projects that Stuart could have use the money on around the railway, my answer would be no we can't.

    We also have heritage coaches sitting outside during the winter that cannot be dried off so why don't we have a shed for them? I am sure you have your own opinion to this one.
     
  3. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    Hi I have never said it was going to be easy to do and this project is the hardest thing around and yes credibility is going to suffer at some point (you might say I haven't got any left, well so be it) but if what I do shakes the tree enough to get some movement going then it will all be worth while.

    All I can say is just wait and see what happens.
     
  4. Glenmutchkin

    Glenmutchkin Member

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    Bold statement. I heard it at Bo'ness a few years ago but I don't think we will be switching back now.
     
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  5. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    The school site has outline planning for 14 or 15 house's plus garages, if this development is successfully built before any railway is actively operating across the Viaduct there could be great concern and significant opposition to the railway being allowed to cross the Viaduct, even if the rebuilding of the railway is highlighted to anyone looking to purchase one of these properties the risk of objection remains a great concern, and please nobody say that would never happen, because in this day and age it just might well do
     
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  6. Axe +1

    Axe +1 New Member

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    Andy, Chelfham is south of Wistlandpound Reservoir and hence in Exmoor Associates territory. Why don't EA purchase the property if it's so important to have it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2023
  7. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    Chris, as you are well aware EA's remit is to purchase trackbed south of Wistlandpound, it would seem this of course is not exclusive to EA as in recent years the Trust has also purchased track bed in the South, close to Bratton Fleming and has recently renewed its lease on the trackbed immediately south of the Viaduct , the L&BR CIC owns Chelfham Station therefore why should it be solely EA's responsibility, after all according to some EA is an insignificant company so the trust would have far more influence and experience in putting together a business plan to raise funds and operate the site how others have previously suggested, the point I have mentioned has been raised by many others down here who support the railway including at least one present and long serving trustee of the L&BR, (although he suggested they desperately needed a TWAO to operate over the Viaduct, not own the school site ) a potential developer has even visited the station asking all sorts of questions about the railway, overall though I suppose the successful speed of expansion of the railway from Woody Bay will determine the viability of the whole project and give some definition of when this part of the line will be needed, the state of play at that end of the line will no doubt be duly noted by the powers that be in North Devon
     
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  8. Michael B

    Michael B Member

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    To repeat a previous post, I do not understand a great benefit of spending up to 3/4 of a million pounds on acquiring this property. Apart from controlling development underneath the viaduct. Presumably any complaints from property interests at Bewdley can be resisted by the SVR. I accept there is the desire for a car park, but surely there are cheaper ways of achieving that. This enormous sum doesn't seem justified to obtain a volunteers hostel (which would involve more money for conversion costs) when there are other vital calls on funds. And trains are not likely to be in the prospect of running over the viaduct in my lifetime. (even if, as is likely, it will not be that long) There may well be liabilities apart from the viaduct when acquired - for example is there a risk of flood ?
     
  9. Axe +1

    Axe +1 New Member

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    EA has already set a precedent for purchasing land other than railway trackbed. I refer of course to the acquisition of the garage at Snapper Halt.

    You are aware I trust that the land came to the L&BR over a decade ago in 2010 resulting from an unsolicited offer to purchase. This was I believe prior to the L&BR and EA establishing a shared agreement to separate trackbed acquisition respectively north/south of Wistlandpound.

    I'm not aware that the trackbed is leased. It is my understanding that L&BR staff and volunteers are permitted by the land owner to enter that section of trackbed to which you refer to undertake vegetation clearance. I will check it out and advise.

    By reason I suggest that the L&BR currently have more important issues and priorities to deal with between Woody Bay and Wistlandpound.

    EA already own two stations and an ever increasing length of trackbed. In my book this makes EA far from being an insignificant company.

    desperately? My understanding is that a TWAO will be required to enable the railway to purchase the viaduct, after which trains can operate. Having said that, I can think of a reason why the L&BR management would desperately like to get the viaduct under their control.

    Agreed.
     
  10. lynbarn

    lynbarn Well-Known Member

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    You have brought up the very point I made sometime ago regarding flood risk, I just don't see how any full planning permission can been given in light of local facility company opposition and if prospective developers have done their homework this would be seen as a bad risk.

    If you think about it, why is the land up for sale now? Is it that they know they won't be given the planning permission to carry out the development they have planned so they may be trying to off load it.

    It was at first put up for sale as one lot, now it appears to have been split into two with one part consisting of the old Historic Mill buildings and the second part the main development site. Given all that and what I have said about this, I am sure that a railway backed scheme to buy this site could work out to our long term advantage.

    That said what else can the site accommodate, a new school or education facility, some time ago as Chris D pointed out the L&BR was refused planning permission for a car park at Chelfham, purchasing the mill site would over come this problem.

    Sometimes it is far too easy to think of reasons why something should never be done, yet something which could provide to be very positive and would add to or enhance the L&BR presents in the area, is actively discouraged by those that in a few years time will say why didn't you buy the site at the time.

    I am under no illusion that we have to be in for the long haul and putting the L&BR back together is a huge jigsaw, but it needs to be done with the long term in mind and also it has to be done in a sustainable way. Some land/trackbed purchases might not appear to advance the cause in the short term. But all will be required at some point.

    One thing which I have noticed and it is not only on here that it happens, but the L&BR was a 20 mile line, yet some appear to have a certain amount of pleasure in trying to divide the support of the railway between Snapper/Chelfham/Bratton Fleming and Woody Bay.

    As far as I am concerned, it is just one railway that has many active projects in hand, some more complex than others, and yes it is very frustrating not to know what is going on from a members point of view. More so now that some of the development news is published in the railway press before the membership get to know about it.

    I don't accept that it is possible to see all this news on the official website before hand as we still have members that don't have or use the internet, so why should they be disadvantaged after all? They are the ones who help pay for this and other L&BR based projects or even leave us a legacy to the Trust to carry on the long term work.
     
  11. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    Chris ,yes you may have me on a couple of points there although at the time of purchase of the garage EA had no base as such to work from, i did in fact think the trackbed purchase by the trust north of BFS was more recent than 2010 and after the north/south agreement, the trust had previously leased the trackbed immediately south of the viaduct and has just renewed that lease at the tail end of last year, i would agree the railway does have more important concerns between WB and WP especially seeing that they have had 5 years of planning granted and that is now down to within 55 days before it expires, if the S73 is successful and we all have to hope at least part of it is, will there actually be time to get a spade in the ground, if not, then what! and who is going to pick up the pieces. At the current rate of progress it could be years before anything happens in the south and if the school site does get developed for housing every year that passes could go against trains running over the viaduct,
     
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  12. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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    The re-establishment of the railway is in the local plan so I would expect that a search would point this out to anyone purchasing a property. If I was buying a house on the development then I would be asking what the plans were for using the viaduct.
     
  13. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If I were buying that house I would be asking who is responsible for ensuring the viaduct doesn't fall down, and what exactly happens if serious faults develop. I have a relative who lives near another disused viaduct, which no-one seems keen to maintain, but in that case not dangerously near.
     
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  14. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

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    Many people now days do expect to be able to purchase tickets on line, and often via their mobile devices. They may do so days in advance, but there will also be those who look at the weather forecast, decide a train ride would be better than the beach (or whatever) and expect to be able to look up - and purchase their tickets online for that day. Your website needs to support that.
    So, selling tickets on line is the way forward. Do they also need to sell tickets over the counter on the day? Yes they do.
    These are not exclusive options.
     
  15. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Also worth noting @lynbarn that online tickets don't necessarily equal pre-booked seats/fixed itineraries and all the rest of it. You simply sell the same tickets you can buy at the booking office online, simples.
     
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  16. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    By all accounts the Viaduct is in very good condition, better than some mainline ones but then it hasn't had trains running across it since 1936,there is however some spalling of the bricks and some pointing is in need of attention
     
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  17. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm not getting the impression that you're Samson, however strongly you appear to be trying to bring the roof down.

    I am a new member of the Trust, and someone you are presumably wishing to influence. At the moment, the influence you are having is convincing me that you are a disaffected random idea generator who throws stuff out unfiltered.
     
  18. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Just focussing on the website related comments:
    Just on this point, you need to know what that 70p covers before you can judge whether it is or is not value for money. Web hosting is not free, and card payments are charged for - wherever they're done. And sometimes - I don't know whether it's the case here - upgrades are enforced because the technology stops being supported or supportable.

    And to this observer, the old site shouts of old technology and lack of investment and updates.

    It's visually good and ok to navigate - the content is too much of a beta for my taste, but that's quickly fixable off season.

    Others have commented on the role of online sales. I'll just observe that if £7k of sales costs on existing business allow £10k (an equally arbitrary number) of additional sales, that will result in more cash being available, not less. And, if it's charged per transaction, that will be £7k less income rather than £7k more cost - the same amount of cash in total, but very possibly coming through the books in a much more manageable way.

    Edit: Quotation tidied up to make clear what is original, and what a reply. No other changes.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2023
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  19. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    @lynbarn's maths is flaky (not for the first time). It isn't £7,000 of fees against £10,000 of sales - that would be ruinous. Rather, his initial numbers were:

    "From what I have seen I am told that every transaction made on this new site is going to cost the railway 70p each time, so let's assume that the new website has 10,000 transactions per year"​

    Checking online, an adult ticket is £8.50; a family is £25. So even if we take each of those transactions as worth £8.50, that is £85k in revenue against £7k in transaction fees, which is rather more reasonable.

    As others have noted, online transactions aren't free, though it is unclear to me (and, I suspect, to @lynbarn) whether those £0.70 per transaction is to the web provider, or the card company, or maybe the web provider acting as an intermediary to the card company (unlikely); or to a third-party merchant like Shopify etc. The important point though is that while there are overt fees for processing online payments, taking payments using cash, card or cheque in a booking office is not free either. An organisation like the L&BR handling card payments at its booking offices will have both a direct fee chargeable on each payment, and a significant compliance cost in training and configuration of the booking office to satisfy the card companies that opportunities for fraud are minimised. (Go and read the PCI-DSS standard - if you have a spare week or so ...)

    Short of the L&BR reverting to a barter-based system of ticket sales ("bring our volunteers four loaves of bread and five pints of milk and you can an have one adult day rover") handling the payment transactions will have costs and compliance issues, whether they are done online, in a booking office or - as seems likely and sensible - both.

    Tom
     
  20. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Indeed, there was also the assumption that the website isn’t going to bring in any additional revenue over the existing stream. Any additional sales there mean additional income the railway wouldn’t have had which means even if the fee was 50%, those bookings would still be generating additional profit rather than just an additional cost as suggested.
     
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