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73096

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by domeyhead, Mar 16, 2009.

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  1. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Don't get me going about split pins! A while ago a well-known railway hired a certain loco that I was responsible for and they came up with a list of faults. Some were justified (not many) but a lot were 'split pins not opened up sufficiently.' I was always told to only open up split pins sufficiently to stop them coming out, which to me, is a minimal amount. I researched this and found no standard by which the amount of opening was specified. The only thing I found was a reference to split pins on screw couplings which should be fully opened and curled around the pin they go through to prevent them being knocked out by a swinging coupling. If anybody else can point me to a relevant standrard or instruction, I'd be pleased to hear about it!
    This is going way off topic on 73096! I've made comment about the ultimate cause and remain very open-minded on the issue. I firmly believe from the information available to me that a displaced core plug caused much of the damage. Others have suggested hydraulicking as an initial cause, both on this forum and elsewhere. I remain open minded on whether this had any relevance as what happened for reasons already given. I have seen comment that a 'knocking' had previously been reported. I have seen comment that the threads were stripped. I have seen comment that the loco was priming before the event. I have seen the published photos which show the back part of the piston being devoid of a core plug and the front part as having a damaged core plug still in-situ. I have seen comment that the 'missing' core plug has been retrieved. Much of this is speculation and may well be mis-informed. All this is why I think that an official (i.e. MHR) published report into the incident can only be a good thing, if only to establish exactly how and why a core plug came out. There are lessons to be learned!
     
  2. boldford

    boldford Member

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    Can anyone confirm the retrieved core plug is in fact "half a core plug"? I agree, further scrutiny of the photographs does suggest one part is missing and one is present. I will not speculate further on if, when or how this has happened.
     
  3. chessie

    chessie Member

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    Not from anyone who was involved in this event - what you've seen is Nat Pres's staple diet. SPECULATION!
     
  4. rsfaithfull

    rsfaithfull Member

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    The retrieved plug is whole - I have seen it.
     
  5. kieranhardy

    kieranhardy Well-Known Member

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    He has now renamed the video in response to the comments i made on it.
     
  6. boldford

    boldford Member

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    Thanks for clearing that up.
     
  7. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    I take it that the retreived core plug was found inside the piston void and that it was not a through plug but, in fact, a short plug. This means that it was in the rear part of the piston only as per the drawings for the 3 ringed pistons.
     
  8. chessie

    chessie Member

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    If it had been found inside the piston void it would still have been captive and caused no damage, so I think that's unlikely.
     
  9. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Not really, a short core plug is 3/4" long. It would have to unscrew just over half its length to make contact with the rear cylinder cover. The rear cylinder cover was badly damaged and the interaction between the plug and the cover would be like a heavy hammer blow on each item. As has been stated previously the core plug thread on the piston was stripped. Why was this? The hammer blow on the core plug could well have stripped the threads and forced it back into the void.
    This, of course, is a possible scenario. I await finding out what the full investigation reveals.
    It should also be rememberd that it was very lucky that nobody was injured during the incident. If an injury had occured RAIB would have had to do their own thorough investigation and, who knows, what the findings of such a report would say about the safety of steam locomotives.
     
  10. 21D

    21D Member

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    Solely in the ineterests of being open. The core plug was found by a member of the crew lying trackside (I too have seen the item) - as you would expect given the disintegration of the cylinder. There is no truth in reports that the engine was priming prior to the incident, the crew are clear on that, and the evidence supports them (if such support were needed). There are many reasons a loco might knock. The most obvious would not be a loose core plug I would suggest.

    The Mid-Hants is being incredibly open about the incident. How many other railways would immediately publish pictures of such an event? But no, there has to be a consipiracy. I do realise why people have this view of the railway, but from my personal experience the only difference between the MHR and plenty of other preservation lines is that the disagreements tend to be made public. I suppose this is the reason that the conspiracists have such a field day, but in fact there is more consipiracy happening at some of the other lines that appear on the surface to be without disagreement.

    Some of the uninformed speculation is MOST unfair, particularly to the crew involved in this incident. Imagine how you would feel if you were on the recieving end on the inuendo and allegation made here, when the details of the incident as - best anyone understands it at the moment - have been made public. What we have here is a mechanical failure that's it. The crew were doing nothing wrong, the loco just broke. If you play with big toys, sometimes you will get a big breakage.

    I don't mind people taking a pop at the MHR, sometimes it well deserves criticism, but remember please that real people run the railway and they have real feelings, accusing people of negligence is bound to be emotive.
     
  11. 21D

    21D Member

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    Not really, a short core plug is 3/4" long. It would have to unscrew just over half its length to make contact with the rear cylinder cover. The rear cylinder cover was badly damaged and the interaction between the plug and the cover would be like a heavy hammer blow on each item. As has been stated previously the core plug thread on the piston was stripped. Why was this? The hammer blow on the core plug could well have stripped the threads and forced it back into the void.
    This, of course, is a possible scenario. I await finding out what the full investigation reveals.
    It should also be rememberd that it was very lucky that nobody was injured during the incident. If an injury had occured RAIB would have had to do their own thorough investigation and, who knows, what the findings of such a report would say about the safety of steam locomotives.[/quote:1nwlur0k]

    It wasn't a short plug. It was a through plug.
     
  12. Woody Forest

    Woody Forest Member

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    Couldn't agree with you more, what a surprise the armchair experts are out in force on this one, all wanting to out do each other trying to prove their point. It's all rather sad really. Let those on the ground with the parts infront of them tell the FACTS rather than trying to "guess" the cause via images on a damn pc!

    Give me strength!
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    All the above posts are very interesting. Looking at the main contributors, I don't think that these are 'armchair enthusiasts', with no involvement with Heritage Railways and steam locos in particular but people who have a genuine interest in both the cause and why. The general impression I'm getting is that those who have suggested elsewhere that priming was a prime cause are wrong and it is purely a mechanical failure. What has not been established, or at least not made public, are the events leading up to the failure. Core plug failures aren't, unfortunately, uncommon and every avenue must be explored to learn lessons and ensure that they become a thing of the past. To a large extent, this is why I keep hammering away at the need to produce a proper, fully investigated report into the incident. It is not to find fault with the Mid Hants Railway, which I hold in high regard; it is to try and ensure that such an incident never happens again. Only those that can look, see and investigate can provide the answers but we can all ask the questions. And so we should.
     
  14. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    The Question " what the hell happened" has been asked Steve and so far to date the MHR have kept everyone imformed , It has been said even by the driver of the engine himself that it was a core plug failure . what more do you need?

    As for this

    Its another one of them times were you really need to talk to Colin Chambers about it and not tell nat pres that a investigation has to be done to help everyone out . I'm sure all owners that have engines which have core plugs will , unless stupid. go away and check theres no banging about on the move and also check theres no everidance of any possible failures soon to occure .

    So really , i have to agree with 21D and woody here that these are part time people doing something they love and wouldnt purposly damage any engine. As for the steam beno or what ever ill imformed magazine it is thats been publishing its the Firemans fault for over filling the boilor . then ive never heard so much cowpoo in my life . I think they have been getting the same information to where some of the NP people have got theres .

    I think every possible expert both in the industry and from there Armchair has had there say and argued how they might know better then the MHR . so it could be time to lock the thread till a report comes out . IF you (NP) feel that a report should be issued to the public , thats fine . but talk to the heads of the MHR , dont complain on here.
     
  15. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    Well said young Mitchell could not agree more.

    Chris Willis
     
  16. Ropley Lineside

    Ropley Lineside New Member

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    Well said young Mitchell could not agree more.

    Chris Willis[/quote:3v34ierd]
    I'd like to second that.
     
  17. ralphchadkirk

    ralphchadkirk New Member Account Suspended

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    Well said young Mitchell could not agree more.

    Chris Willis[/quote:37briecg]
    I'd like to second that.[/quote:37briecg]

    And I will third that, Mitchell (Webb!!)
     
  18. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    I'm with Steve on this one. I feel that it is the responsibility of 73096's operators and the owner to ensure that copies of the investigation report are sent to every steam locomotive owner in the country. This was a catastropic and sickening accident.
    As for small prarie's comment about loco owners checking the pistons of their locos, yes, that is fair enough, but can he tell us what was the timescale between 73096's last p and v exam and the accident. We can all check our locos and they appear sound, but? Something very strange happened to cause this accident. For instance, how did a core plug 3 3/8" long manage to unscrew itself in one sweep of the piston stroke?
    I have, no doubt, that the MHR's management and the loco owner understand the concern of other loco owners about needing to know exactly what caused the destruction of 73096's left hand cylinder.
     
  19. No dout the reports if there is one will filter through with the BR standard locomotive owners group !
     
  20. Small Prairie

    Small Prairie Part of the furniture

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    I can honeslty say i have no idea when it had its last P and V exam , Although im sure that once a formal statment has been made it will be made to the right people, std tank , if you are a loco owner with an engine with coreplugs or a simular idea , then i am sure your copy of the statement , or a information pack of somesort will be in the post to you as some point .
     
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