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Sir Nigel Gresley - The L.N.E.R.’s First C.M.E.

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, Dec 3, 2021.

  1. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    And later, the 72000 chimney profile is somewhat different to what was accepted to be working at the time and presumably 71000s dropped on someones desk 1 hour before an early finish...
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2022
  2. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I see from Simon's Edward Thompson book on page 175 that the Gresley A10, A3 and A4 Pacifics all averaged around the 70% availability mark in 1946.

    Interestingly, and following a re-reading of E. S. Cox's book 'Chronicles of Steam', it would appear that even the LMS had availability problems too. It was found in 1946 (page 155) that even the highly regarded 'Princess Coronation/Duchess' class Pacifics were achieving only 63% availability for the English based locos, and the Scottish ones achieving a rather miserable performance of merely 55%. An actual figure for the whole class worked out at only 61%.

    It could therefore presumed that this was a common situation for that time and it would be interesting to know what the availability figures for the other prominent locos were, not only for the LMS, but the GWR and Southern as well.

    Maybe, for that time, the Gresley locos weren't doing too badly after all.
     
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  3. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    That is not what page 175 of my book shows.

    Class A4 was mostly below 70% as a class, class A3 was in and around 70%, and Class A10 had the best availability of these classes.

    upload_2022-11-10_20-2-26.png

    As you can see, the oldest of the Pacifics have the better availability overall.

    Class A1/1 had the best individual availability score in 1946, having achieved no availability in 1944 when withdrawn for rebuilding from class A10 and emerging partway through 1945 with a figure of 46% availability (and I explain why this is, in the book).

    I will need to look at that, these are interesting figures.

    I don't believe you can assume that, actually.

    I say this because I have an overview of the L.N.E.R. data and it's just not that simple. There are some Gresley classes performing exceptionally well, some exceptionally poor, and most are between 65%-70% availability and some older locos by different CMEs are performing better overall (but the absolute oldest locos have the worst availabilities).

    I would hope nobody has suggested the Gresley locos as a whole were doing badly, but some were definitely performing better than others.
     
    Last edited: Nov 10, 2022
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  4. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I wrote 'averaged around' the 70% mark to indicate that one was a bit under 70%, another pretty well on the mark, and another a bit over. In the light of E. S. Cox's writings about the 'Duchess' class this suggests that the low availability situation was a national one, and not confined to the LNER, but in this instance to the LMS too, and probably to the other groups as well. Bear in mind also that the 'Duchesses', on average, were much younger than the Gresley Pacifics, even when just comparing them with the A4s alone.

    It would be interesting to know just how the 'Princess Royals' and the 'Royal Scots' fared during this period. Quite how the LMS got away with building 'Duchesses', in wartime (and with streamlined casings too!) , especially after the hoo-ha Bulleid had to contend with over the Merchant Navy' class in 1941 is another untold story.
     
  5. misspentyouth62

    misspentyouth62 Well-Known Member

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    Removed
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2022
  6. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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  7. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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  8. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Can anyone confirm a source where I can see Chapelon's total design output as a C.M.E.?

    As in, how many designs, and how many built of each design, including rebuilds of other designer's locomotives?

    I am going down something of a rabbit hole in regards my conclusions and it would be good to be better informed. I was told not to touch the H.C.B. Rogers book on Chapelon (!) - is there a better book I can reference?
     
  9. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    I assume you have La Locomotive a Vapeur already, or is that not what you're looking for?

    Maybe a look at what books La Vie du Rail offer would be useful.
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
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  10. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    Not got that. Useful primary evidence from the man himself though. I'm looking for an overview of his career, specifically.
     
  11. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Hmmm, good luck with that - I wonder what native French enthusiasts make of Rogers' book then as I understand it was translated into French.
     
  12. Eightpot

    Eightpot Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    La Locomotive a Vapeur - a book with so many errors and nonsenses that it mystifies me as to how it ever got published.
     
  13. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    What are the issues there?
     
  14. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    This is written by a Chapelon fan that drove steam locomotives.

    • Maurice Maillet, Les "Pacific" P.O.-Midi et l'œuvre d'André Chapelon au Réseau d'Orléans, Les Éditions du Cabri, réédition 1983. (ISBN 978-2-903310-32-5 et 2-903310-32-7)
    • Maurice Maillet, L'œuvre d'André Chapelon à la S.N.C.F. et son influence mondiale, Les Éditions du Cabri, 1983., 152 p. (ISBN 2-903310-27-0)
     
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  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    What text would you recommend on Chapelon?

    It seems extraordinarily difficult to pin down answers to these questions:
    • how many locomotives he rebuilt/built (which apparently is "0" but I can't find what I would consider a good secondary source to confirm this)
    • how many designs he is credited with (looks like eight total at this point)
    • how many locomotives gained Chapelon apparatus in France (specifically excluding UK designs)
     
  16. Maunsell907

    Maunsell907 Member

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    Three books ( in addition to the 1938 La Locomotive a Vapeur and the English translation of the 1952
    edition ) that I have and may perhaps be not known to you.

    L’oeuvre d’Andre Chapelon a la S.N.C.F et son influence Mondiale par Maurice Mallet
    ( published Les Editions du Cabri 1981 )

    By the same author and publisher 1980
    Les “Pacific du P.O.-Midi et l’oeuvre d’Andre Chapelon au Resau d’Orleans

    A book printed many times of background interest
    La Machine Locomotive Manuel Pratique par Edouard Sauvage et Andre Chapelon.
    Published Paris et Liege Libraire Polytechnique Ch. Belanger.
    ( My copy is the tenth edition which I think was published 1945, the “advertisement de l’editeur”
    says “ reimprimee en 1945 pour satisfaire a la demande de ses nombres lectures “
    Sauvage died in 1937 and was effectively CME of the Est.)

    Michael Rowe
     
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2022
  17. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

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    I assume that you will already have checked the Wikipedia entry - which other forum members may be able to amplify (or correct):

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Chapelon

    I don't think Chapelon was ever a CME. In the late 1920s, he seems to have functioned as a research and design assistant to the CME of the Paris-Orleans Railway - perhaps another forum member may know his official position.

    Just as the Gresley Pacifics under-performed in their original condition, so did the various French Pacific types. Chapelon appears to have been tasked to look into the Paris-Orleans 3500 class and see what improvements might be possible. The French writer Gérard Vuillet ("Railway Reminiscences of Three Continents") sets the scene:

    "It had been hoped to obtain 2400 to 2500 ihp from the Paris-Orleans Pacifics before the application of a superheater. In fact barely 2000 ihp were recorded. Compared with the previous 4-4-2s, which were able to develop continuously 1800 ihp, an increase in the grate area of 38% only produced 10% more power."

    The "previous 4-4-2s" were the type that (with minor modifications) were purchased by the GWR as Nos 103/4. Whether or not the claimed 1800 ihp is accurate, it is clear that that the later Pacifics were not producing a power increase in step with the size increase.

    From a British perspective, what is perhaps unusual is that Chapelon was able to take the credit for his work, instead of it being attributed to the CME. There have certainly been British CMEs who delegated most design work to the Chief Draughtsman or another subordinate but are still credited with the results.
     
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    So I am really struggling to see exact numbers here. Chapelon had a number of french locomotives rebuilt to his re-designs and with components he designed or selected. But there does not appear to be a complete list anywhere on the internet or, as of this morning, a few of the books I have ordered.

    So the basic question I am trying to answer is:

    How many locomotives can we ascribe the name Chapelon to, realistically?

    The crux of my closing remarks in my Gresley book amount to pointing out the difference between a CME, a designer and the achievements which are perceived and those actually achieved.

    In my view, Gresley remains one of the greatest locomotive engineers of the 20th Century and on design and building record alone, certainly one of the most influential CMEs when it comes to actually providing a railway with motive power.

    The arguments that the ultimate in efficiency/power/speed/etc that have led to differing views elsewhere (e.g. that Gresley is inferior to Chapelon because he did not achieve locomotives which produced in excess of 2500 HP, for example) seems to me to be fundamentally flawed, assuming (in my view, wrongly) that a direct comparison of work is possible.

    My own views on Chapelon are being shaped by the crucial question, how much did his work in France actually benefit the railways he worked for, and the answer is somewhat less than I was expecting, particularly because it appears to be a very small pool of locomotives that were actually modified under his direction as a designer.

    Gresley, on the other hand, had over 1000 locomotives to his name (not including some fundamental rebuilds of older stock by other designers) and, although a handful were a bit hit and miss, provided the LNER with many successful and reliable locomotives throughout the 20s, 30s and into the early years of WW2. That sort of success is significant and appears to be downplayed when he is compared with those people would consider "the greats" - Chapelon, Porta, etc.

    Fundamentally I don't believe that the criteria for some of the blanket statements by some writers has been justified.
     
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  19. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Is the story of Chapelon the French version of Thompson and his standing in the ranks of locomotive designers perchance - or a parallel with the work of Porta and Wardell in South Africa ?
     
  20. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Chapelon showed how far both thermodynamic efficiency and power-to-weight ratio could be improved with sufficient attention to many details of design. In that respect he was clearly ahead of everybody else at the time. However his influence on the actual operation of the French railways does seem to have been minimal, though there is the story that SNCF hastily upped the spec on some new electrics when they would have been less powerful than one of his improved steam locos.

    Considering how long steam survived in France, with their phased approach to introducing diesels and electrics, it seems noteworthy how little of Chapelon's legacy actually got used post-war. Was it mainly a case of KISS, epitomised by the American 141Rs?
     

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