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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    >>>>While, to my knowledge, there hasn't been a case of a loco running dry before.......

    I'm not sure about actually dry, but I recall an incident at the Autumn Gala in 2008 when an Up train headed by 9466 departed Crowcombe only to return before it had even passed under the Lydeard Bridge and then sat for a-g-e-s in the Up platform filling its tanks from the station gardener's hose while waiting to be rescued by a LE sent from BL. More annoying for all the photographers etc on the Down platform, the back end of the train blocked the board-crossing at the Williton end, so they were marooned over there with no refreshments ! And sadly the station staff - for whatever reason - would not let them use the staff crossing at the south end even under supervision...:-(

    PA040022.JPG
     
  2. 6026 King John

    6026 King John Well-Known Member

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    Yes I remember it well! I was standing somewhere to the left of the picture. It was one of those Thomas the Tank Engine moments!
     
  3. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Again, based on what's been said here, I believe we're in the grey area where uprating was done relatively simply based on desk exercises, but the extra weight (not just axle weight) has in places exceeded what the infrastructure was built for. I agree with you that the boundary between investment and maintenance is a question of semantics, but I'm using "investment" here based on the understanding that the work is not just to repair to a previous standard, but actually to upgrade.
     
  4. Robin Moira White

    Robin Moira White Resident of Nat Pres

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    In engineering terms the WSR can be considered in three parts.

    (1) Norton Fitzwarren to Bishops Lydeard.

    There are virtually no underline structures other than a few culverts. This is, effectively, a double-red section where the heaviest locos can be accommodated. This is fortunate for the tie-up with LSL at the moment.

    (2) Bishops Lydeard to Watchet

    The original 1862 Bristol and Exeter route.

    Well and generously built

    (3) Watchet to Minehead - the Minehead Extension Railway.

    Speculatively and cheaply contractor-built opened in 1874 paid for by the Luttrell family.

    Some concerning structures, such as 'Black Monkey' bridge between Washford and Blue Anchor. (So called because it spans an ancient monks' path.) This section and that bridge in particular need careful management.

    It is correct to say that an unfortunate decision some years ago caused the loss of important engineering data on structures.

    Finally, a factor which has appeared in recent years is the long-term deterioration of rail quality, large sections of which has not been replaced since closure in 1971 and in some cases longer. From time-to-time statements like 'the need to replace a half-mile of rail a year' have been made but rarely executed. Rail galling (rust in chairs) and general reduction of rail mass by loss of rail head and long term surface rusting means that the I-beam that is a bullhead rail becomes increasingly weaker and so weight and speed restrictions need to be imposed.

    On a positive note, reduced line speeds - 25 mph or less versus the 40 - 50 mph BR / GWR line speeds - feed into the 'hammer blow' applied to underline structures by passing steam locos. Energy is the square of speed, so half-speed puts a quarter of the energy into the structure.

    Complex professional engineering judgments are required to balance these factors and risks.

    I hope some of that is helpful.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2022
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  5. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Fired a blank there I am afraid![/QUOTE]



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        dunghill1New Member

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        Bayard said:
        Outside a change in the rules, if the route was once "red" and is now "blue", that can only be due to decay of one type or another. Regardless of what has decayed, it needs to be put right, otherwise the weight limit will continue to fall until only DMUs can use the line.​
        The whole route was allways blue untill it was raised from Taunton to Bishops lydeard when that section was raised to red. Sometime during the 1990s or 200s the whole route was raised to red before being reduced by the office of the Rail Regulator recently


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        Big AlNat Pres stalwart
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        dunghill1 said:
        The whole route was allways blue untill it was raised from Taunton to Bishops lydeard when that section was raised to red. Sometime during the 1990s or 200s the whole route was raised to red before being reduced by the office of the Rail Regulator recently​
        It hardly matters what colour the route is or will be if the line doesn't offer a spectacle for its visitors.

        I was at the Bluebell Giants of Steam event today where they had set up a non stop service from Sheffield Park to East Grinstead.....with a pair of Standard Class 5s. Seeing them powering through Horsted Keynes was something else.

        The WSR really is off the pace at the moment.
        "Keep as cool as you can. Face piles of trials with smiles" (Graeme Edge)


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        johnofwessexResident of Nat Pres

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        Given comments made about the small number of engines available to hire and of course in the recent heatwave they only had the two 33's available because the 47 was to big, being a 'Red' route would mean more options in time of difficulty
        Do not exceed 230 rpm on cold engine


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        BayardWell-Known Member

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        35B said:
        My recollection is that the upgrade to “red” was more paperwork than engineered, and that reversion to “blue” better reflects the underlying infrastructure. I completely agree on maintaining infrastructure being vital.​
        I seem to recall that, although the route was, historically, always "blue", the civil engineering on the line was not built to an exact specification which delivered a "blue" weight limit, indeed, nearly all of it was probably built before such things were thought of. It could quite well be that the route was always "blue" simply because it din't need to be "red" and a "red" route would have had to be maintained to a more costly standard. This means that the weight restriction is more a matter of judgement of a civil engineer than something hard and fast hence the paper engineering.

        Paulthehitch said:
        Alas it seems the "Big chuffferites" are re-emerging.:rolleyes:
        You have to accept that big chuffers are exciting and civil engineering (apart from extensions) is much less so. If you want to persuade everyone to spend lots of money on civil engineering that means the line will look no different afterwards than what it did before, how do you sell it? One way is to get the Big Chufferites behind you by promising an upgrade to the line's weight limit.


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        PaulthehitchMember

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        Big Al said:
        It hardly matters what colour the route is or will be if the line doesn't offer a spectacle for its visitors.

        I was at the Bluebell Giants of Steam event today where they had set up a non stop service from Sheffield Park to East Grinstead.....with a pair of Standard Class 5s. Seeing them powering through Horsted Keynes was something else.

        The WSR really is off the pace at the moment.​
        Yet more big chufferitis!! The classic gricer assumptions that the general run of passengers, who produce the bulk of revenue, have any interest in these sorts of issues is wishful thinking.



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        21BWell-Known Member

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        I have an inkling based on the receipts at various (but not all) steam galas that fewer steam enthusiasts are economically active than was the case prior to 2020.

        In my humble opinion we have probably lived through the "golden age" of big galas at all the major lines happening spring and autumn. In truth a kind of arms race with railways attempting to pull together ever more amazing lineups had set in in recent times and these are never sustainable.

        Go back 25years and gala was generally just steaming everything you had and maybe having one guest. These days are returning, but even this may not be downsizing enough.

        We all face incredibly tough times personally and for our railways. Not one of them isn't going to feel the economic headwinds of 2023 and beyond. The current idiotic behaviour of the government has intensified problems that were already there for HRs.

        Many HRs face a backlog of investment. In a number of cases this backlog is most prevalent in infrastructure (historically the least glamorous and most ignored area - other than extensions). This is massively expensive to fix and doesn't add anything to the appeal of the line to anyone. It just has to happen.

        Against this the falling household disposable incomes and all the other factors mentioned on here ad naseum provide a toxic environment.

        HRs will find it easier to survive if they 1) focus on keeping volunteers contented (not happy.... important difference), 2) ruthlessly pursue value for money (which they have tended to be pretty good at), 3) focus on costs - which means NO flights of fantasy and NO frills that don't either immediately reduce cost or add tangibly to the visitor experience 4) be good at fundraising outside of the enthusiasts pocket and the HLF.

        There is no room for dreaming of running a King if all you need is a 57xx




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        21BWell-Known Member

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        Just to add a thought. Do not underestimate the scale of the threat facing heritage railways. I do not say they cannot meet the threat, but there remains a very real threat. The WSR is not the only hi profile line which faces serious financial issues


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        35BNat Pres stalwart

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        Bayard said:
        I seem to recall that, although the route was, historically, always "blue", the civil engineering on the line was not built to an exact specification which delivered a "blue" weight limit, indeed, nearly all of it was probably built before such things were thought of. It could quite well be that the route was always "blue" simply because it din't need to be "red" and a "red" route would have had to be maintained to a more costly standard. This means that the weight restriction is more a matter of judgement of a civil engineer than something hard and fast hence the paper engineering.​
        I'm well aware of the imprecision of some historical practices, and how the official status of a line could reflect need as much as use. However, and I'm pretty sure it's discussed on this thread, the reversion to "blue" limits reflects issues identified with the civil engineering that go beyond just maintenance matters, and that investment is required on both structures and earthworks to support routine use of locomotives classified as "red". One side effect of this is that some of the larger diesels are unable to run on the line, with the class 47 going to the NYMR rather than be left idle.

        I've no issue with the idea of the WSR being run as a "red" route, and have fond memories of riding on a very long train hauled by Duke of Gloucester back in the mid-1990s. What does concern me, from the comfort of my armchair, is where this sits in terms of the WSR's priorities given the financial results* and the expressed need for very large sums to be spent each year on keeping it at the present standard. At that point, I can't but wonder whether red status is a "nice to have" or "essential" item.

        * - I have had the "pleasure" of a "going concern" discussion as a trustee; it is a salutary experience and one I wouldn't wish on anyone.


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        ruddingtonrsh56Member

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        One thing that doesn't seem to have been mentioned (at least explicitly) regarding the pros and cons of upgrading the route to take heavier locomotives is the fact that, not only does having a lower axle loading limit preclude the railway from operating heavier locos, but also a significant majority of those locomotives are tender locomotives with water capacity of 4000 gallons or excess, giving a greater reserve fuel capacity for an end-end trip. If there is any railway where that is advantageous when sourcing a locomotive, it is the 20 mile West Somerset where (as I understand it based on discussions I remember earlier in the year), the only watering facilities are at each end of the line. While a tank engine with 1200 gallons can do 20 miles on a tank, you have significantly less in reserve in case the train gets delayed for reasons beyond your control, the load needs to be increased at short notice due to high demand, you have an inexperienced/trainee driver/fireman who doesn't operate the loco as economically as possible, or water consumption is increased because the steam heating goes on. While, to my knowledge, there hasn't been a case of a loco running dry before, it's certainly something where, if possible, it's desirable for the board to take measures they can to reduce the chance of this happening. Having locos with plenty of water in reserve is one way of going about this, and your available pool of these is much greater if you aren't limited to locos of Blue/Yellow route standard or below.

        Alternatively you could just put a water tower or two in at Williton, which tbh might be cheaper, but that doesn't help if you have a year where the loco fleet is a bit thin on the ground, all the 1200 gallon tank engines are booked up by other railways, and you can't book the Hall or Black 5 that's available because they're too heavy...
        Fireman at the Battlefield line and NHR (formerly GCRN).
        Any views expressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not to be taken as the views of any organisations or groups.



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        Big AlNat Pres stalwart
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        Paulthehitch said:
        Yet more big chufferitis!! The classic gricer assumptions that the general run of passengers, who produce the bulk of revenue, have any interest in these sorts of issues is wishful thinking.​
        I think @Paulthehitch that the event title 'Giants of Steam' is a pretty big clue. And it's not as if the Bluebell doesn't 'do' small when it wants to.

        Fired a blank there I am afraid!
        "Keep as cool as you can. Face piles of trials with smiles" (Graeme Edge)


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        BayardWell-Known Member

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        35B said:
        ...issues identified with the civil engineering that go beyond just maintenance matters, and that investment is required on both structures and earthworks to support routine use of locomotives classified as "red".​
        I'm struggling to think of any axle weight limit-related issues than would not be down to simple wear, tear and decay, nor how those issues would be significantly increased by running heavier locomotives. Yes, if the weight limit was being raised for the first time, a lot of investment might be required on structures and earthworks, but it is not, so any work to structures and earthworks that were previously able to take the load and can't now, must be in the nature of repair rather than alteration. Whether you call repairs investment or maintenance is a matter of semantics, but they still need to be done anyway.
    As you can see I'm an active volunteer. I get to meet quite a few visitors and although I try not to put thoughts into their minds they say some interesting things anyway. Their priorities are more to do with cleanliness and tidyness than the size of the locomotive.

    You need to read the comments of@21B which are spot on
     
  6. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

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  7. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Some sort of electronic problem it seems!
     
  8. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    And how will that civil engineering be done if the infrastructure can’t cope with heavy infrastructure trains involving Top and Tail Class 66’s with an RA7 availability and things like auto ballasters?
     
  9. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    Lol, not sure what you did there!!!
     
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  10. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    How did they do it in a life before the Class 66 arrived on these shores? For example the GWSR have managed without to date.

    I actually think Paul has a point in this situation. Don’t get me wrong I like the idea of bigger engines but also think that if the railway is struggling to remain solvent and the current locos are able to handle the current traffic then surely the priority is survival? That would be my preference, with possibly a long term plan to increase the axle loading in due course, but, at the moment that isn’t a priority due to the fact the railway first needs to be able to wash its own face.
     
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  11. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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    No, the problem here is "my chufferitis".
     
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  12. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    That is one of the clearest and most useful analyses I have read for some time. And when placed in the context of how the whole line came to be built it provides an obvious set of priorities that you ignore at your peril and must have been known about at the time.

    What appears to have happened is that the WSR has in fact ignored these data over time or at least not done enough to keep the infrastructure up to date. And as a consequence it is where it is now.

    Irrespective of what may or may not have been seen as 'acceptable' in the past for the passage of locomotives, the owners themselves will have had a view about whether they would consider allowing their property to chance it on parts of the line.

    It remains a surprise that whilst there is much that was good coming out of locomotive engineering on the WSR, there seems to have been a long term gap in railway maintenance of the line. Re-instating pretty little loading docks may be good but if that distracts from dealing with the main track and bridges, that seems less so.

    Hopefully the current management has now got its priorities right.
     
  13. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Pete, I may have used a crap example on my part in my previous post but I look at the likes the SVR Bluebell and the NYMR who seem to be looking to the future regarding their infrastructure and future proofing it so they can take advantage of being used for things like Top and Tail 66’s on auto ballast trials, weed killing, use of cranes, locomotives on test from the big railway etc.
    Paul use’s his ‘big chufferitus’ reasoning to think it’s all about running anything bigger than a 2MT week in week out.
    My own opinion is this, you upgrade your civil engineering so should you need to you can run something like a King if needs be every so often, whilst using a pannier tank for day to day use, but
    having that extra axle loading capacity is rather useful if someone from say Network Rail and GBRf have a new toy to demonstrate and need a test track to show it off somewhere…
    Seriously it’s not all about ‘Big Chuffers’
    Something our correspondent from Hayling Island spectacularly fails to understand.
     
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  14. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Ironically, those who ''don't understand '' and really need to get a grip are the big chufferite romantics who ignore costs. Again, look at @21B's comments.
    By the way the Mid Hants Ivatt 2MT has been out visiting and pictured at the head of 7Mk. 1s.

    Q.E.D.
     
  15. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Are you ok Hun? You don’t like Mk1’s!
     
  16. mdewell

    mdewell Well-Known Member Friend

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    Are they? Would you rather see a big loco making light work of a train or something smaller working hard? I know which I'd consider more exciting (and I dare say the great british public would also recognise and appreciate the difference).
     
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  17. 2995valliant

    2995valliant New Member

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    The WSR struggled for years with an underpowered steam fleet - for example 6412 and 3205 frequently needed diesel assistance to keep to time when they were in regular peak season use in the 1980s (and the Bagnalls were a whole different kettle of fish, much as I love them) , so there's no way a BR 2MT is going to manage 6 or 7 coach trains. If passenger numbers drop to a level where 4-5 coaches is all that's needed, then they'd be ideal, but I suspect by that point revenue has dropped to a point where the line vanishes in a huff of ego anyway.

    Have you ever ridden behind any loco at the WSR Paul? It's a serious question - it's not like the majority of preserved "elongated sidings".
     
  18. 2995valliant

    2995valliant New Member

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    I'm not sure they do. They like to look at the pretty thing on the front, then they get in and sit down and look out at the scenery. Very few of them have the windows open for the purposes of listening to the loco - that's just the enthusiasts.

    If the whole movement doesn't manage its image very carefully the general public will soon revile them as much as the internal combustion engined vehicle anyway, because that's the logical extension of the current almost hysterical group-think. Whatever you think of FS, having it at KX this weekend is a really good bit of PR for steam in general.
     
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  19. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Indeed no. It's excessively long.
     
  20. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    Already, not all that far away, there are people objecting to the expansion of a heritage railway on the grounds that 'burning coal and producing polluting emissions' is not compatible with a self-declared 'climate emergency'.
     

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