7027 Thornbury Castle

Talking about things you can do if you have the money

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...st-class-west-coast-service-london-manchester

 

I only know what I have read on here and a few links from posts to external sources. Life is too short to wade through them any more than I already have for my post #1507. If you want to track things back then there is a search box at the top right of the page.

 

Thanks for confirming that - I use Cromwell from time to time.

 

Nothing deranged from having an opinion on a discussion forum. I'm not objecting to anything that is written, merely pointing out it is almost a carbon copy of the tears for the 8F from people who don't have the resouces to do anything other than whine about the actions of others

Fit of pique from a millionaire is probably the reason this has happened and i would hazard a guess he is watching the drama unfold with glee

The hard cold fact everyone is overlooking is that the hobby of preserving steam engines has probably peaked and there are huge numbers of them that have been saved and will never ever be restored to use or overhauled. A half complete castle that has never run is now to be fair never ever likely to.

 

That may, or may not. be true and as was pointed out in a recent post there are always two sides to be considered. Some people put their trust in JJP which means they didn't read about Washford and how they were treated.
However it was Mr. Gregory's choice to sell (or give?) his loco to others and direct his interests elsewhere.
Most large heritage railways have a history with disputes - it seems to be the nature of things. There always seems to be an attitude, by some people, of "I know best how he should spend his/her money". One has only to look at the WSR thread to see how different it now is once some the 'ripple makers' are not there. The GCR, likewise, will get over it.

 

I've seen a few fairly weak arguments suggesting that it is acceptable because "it's only a BR Castle", "it's not been touched in 50 years so why do you care now?", "it's not particularly special", "there are already 7 of them". All of the arguments casually glaze over the fact that no matter what your opinion is on that particular loco, the class in general or the GWR/BR(W), no matter who owned it and who owns it now... it was being restored in its own right.

To use it in this way goes against the goodwill of those that have put in their time thus far, whether paid or voluntary. It shows a complete lack of empathy and morality by those that should know better. By all means recreate lost locos, they are interesting and exciting to see. By all means use parts of locos that have no hope of ever running. But don't do it to this loco. I expect better from a society that was one of the trailblazers of the preservation movement.

That really is the crux of the matter.

 

The GCR will be a better railway without MG, that’s for sure. Even if it slows the pace of unification and loses them a couple of locos. It’ll be a crying shame if he is allowed to ‘win’ by ensuring the destruction of 7027 though. Personally, I’m not especially interested in GW Castles, but I believe strongly that this type of bullying behaviour must not be tolerated.

I’ll admit I know little of JJP and less about the WSR (life is too short to read that thread) but he does at least strike me as a genuine enthusiast and preservationist, and is probably the best hope this loco has. I can’t see the 4709 project ever finishing their loco, with or without 7027’s boiler, and the way they are going they risk taking the GWS down with them.

 

Trust me, it will speed up unification. Michael Gregory had zero, zip, nada interest in reunification or running a preserved railway north of the MML. He wanted the mainline connection, nothing more and nothing less, and he didn’t particularly want to share it either. He had no intention of joining up with Ruddington and indeed was quite content to see them go under without a trace.

 

Having shared the odd pint or two with him in the past, I must say he was tremendously good company and his enthusiasm for his business was very infectious - hence why it was so successful. He could be utterly charming, but there always seemed to be a hidden agenda. I used to tell my staff to take the words out of their mouths when talking to him and examine them carefully before speaking them! As an employer he could be a very hard and devious taskmaster - as I discovered.

His interest in railways was always a bit "hidden", but there nonetheless. He was absolutely euphoric when we ran the series of mainline Cromwell Pullman specials with 4472 to take customers to the company's exhibition in 1987, and even more so when we had to use 4498 Sir Nigel Gresley as a substitute on one of the days.
I don't think he had much time for strict accuracy, hence the various names used on his 9F. We will never know now, but I guessed that Thornbury would have ended up as 7031 Cromwell's Castle - he just wouldn't be able to resist it!

 

The actual crux of the matter, and not for the first time is if you decide to give up your time and volunteer on a privately owned project vehicle there is always the danger the owner can say 'thanks very much' and move on. It was always a privately owned asset and there was always the risk this could happen. It did and bleating on the internet won't make the slightest difference if that is what he wants to do.

When one person owns historic assets like this it can end up in problems when benevolent goes bad. The old fable about the Califonia Billioniare wanting to be buried in his gull wing Merc gets trotted out quite frequently. Imagine if JH leaves instructions he wants to be interred in his fleet like ancient pharo when he pops off??

 

I’m not so absolutist as some here. The flip side of the ‘what if’ arguments on iconic locos might be - would one go to the stake on 45015 or any of the 30+ class 37s?

 

Probably going to take Laurence Fox with him as penance

 

Sorry Martin but that is not a valid comparison. All three of those engines have been restored and are runners owned by groups that have financed them. 7027 has never run in preservation and is still basically a pile of scrap metal

 

actually its scrap metal with a three row superheater....

 

So, the thinking from some seems to be that 7027 doesn't matter because there's 8 Castles in preservation. If the 4709 mob go through with their half baked scheme, there will be 7. One of them will be lost irretrievably. I'll admit I've got a considerable soft spot for the Castle class, above all other standard gauge locos, but surely all locomotives that have survived scrapping largely intact, should be kept largely intact. We have a finite number of "old build" steam locomotives. Yes we can build new steam locomotives, and Lyn and 60163 are fantastic (the only ones I've been up close with), but a preserved locomotive, carriage or wagon is a literal link to history. And 60163 and Lyn are faithful rebuilds/replicas , and neither caused the destruction of a genuine historical artefact.
This afternoon I had to drive on the A38, past Buckfastleigh and Ashburton. Ashburton was the archetype GWR country branch terminus, and was the only one in preservation. It still is the only archetype GWR country branch terminus ever in preservation. Built by Brunel, it lasted 90 years in service, and 9 more years into preservation. Then, because of the politics of the time, it was scrapped to build about a half mile of road that could just as easily have been sited 50ft south. I can't see that it would have cost dramatically more to put the road on a different alignment, it seems that the decision was more an attempt to show that modernism and the motor car were here to stay, and old England was going forever.
Was it a tragedy, or was it just money talking?
I visited Ashburton Station- the station that launched a thousand models- when I got my first car., and it amazed me. It is all so intact, and about a hundred yards from the town cross.....You just wonder what sort of egos were at play when that decision was made.
When a thing goes- it goes for ever. I don't get why some are so sanguine about it

 

Actually it’s not scrap metal at all. It’s a steam loco, granted with a few bits worn or missing, but well on the comeback trail. The last photo I saw before all of this kicked off, for example, was the tender wheelsets, all with brand new tyres fitted and, given heritage line use, probably good for the rest of all of our lifetimes.

It would be more credible if Didcot said they were going to use the good bits to get one of their other Castles into service. I still wouldn’t agree with it, but at least it would make some sort of logical sense.


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It was Michael Gregory's personal property to do with as he wished. He had bought it from JJP (via his holdings company) who had bought it from PW, and when you sell a pile of scrap metal you cannot attach conditions - the obvious one that JJP might possibly have imposed have been a first option to buy back .

(You can register such an option with a sale of land).

JJP (via his holding company) apparently did not include in the sale to Michael Gregory any first option to rebuy the hulk whether legally enforceable or not.

As I see it, who would be the best organisation to sell it to - whether at a discount, or otherwise, or scrap price, a hulk of a scrapped GWR Castle? (Albeit one built by BR Western Region).

Obviously, Didcot and the GWS!

If the GWS got it a bargain price and not JJP then that is good for the GWS and very generous of Michael Gregory.

 

Theres:
A Saint-ish
1 Star
8 Castles
9 Halls
3 Kings
9 Manors
7 Modified Halls
Which according to traditional arithmetic is a total of 39 Great Western 4-6-0 locomotives of all classes.