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Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Michael B

    Michael B Member

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    Chris Duffell has a copy of the drawings 2ft 6in long which I made of the table following a visit to New Romney (and photographs of same), and I understand engineering drawings will be prepared. (see transcription in 'Measured and Drawn')
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
  2. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    One well-known relaxation for Light Railways was that Distant signals were not required unless visibility of the Home signal was <440 yards, in effect the 'average' stopping distance for a train doing <25MPH. So for example the ND&CJLR only had one (the Up Distant at Hatherleigh) and the Bere Alston & Calstock Light Rly never had any until some alterations in 1938 necessitated a Down Distant at Gunnislake. One result therefore is that many of the current heritage railways, which now (or used to) operate under LROs could have got rid of many of their distant signals had they wished, but in practice they kept such things for heritage reasons.
     
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  3. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Some interesting points there. Re: the L&MVLR, which was a bit of an oddball, in that Everard Calthrop's 'system' was what we'd likely call a "holistic approach" these days. The line, which employed an unusually light 35lbs/yd track (the Talyllyn had used 44lb/yd in 1865!) plus having a very light axle load (5Tons) and a blanket 15mph speed limit. Evidently Calthrop was an engineer whose judgement was widely respected. Compare Maj. Druitt's glowing inspection report for the L&MVLR with his predecessor Marindin's withering correspondence with the board of the Corris, just over 20 years earlier!

    At the end of the L&M's all too brief existence, mention was made of the contribution of the cost of resleepering to the case for closure, but oddly, not track replacement. H.C. Casserley commented that Calthrop's carriages rode as well at the end as they ever had.

    On the L&B, the speed question alone probably explains why no LRO was sought. The original idea was that the journey be made in an hour or less (I've never heard so much as a rumour it managed anything remotely close to that) and it suffered badly enough from road competition and the need to shunt mixed trains at intermediate stations without making the journey any slower!

    Catchpole detailed several runs, in both directions. One of the better runs was by Yeo four days before closure in 1935, on a train comprising 3 coaches and one bogie van (33t tare) was recorded at a respectable 21½mph up the 1:50 gradient approaching Chelfham Viaduct (then waiting the best part of 5mins to cross an 'up' - Barnstaple - service at Chelfam) and taking water only at Parracombe. This train completed the run, start to stop, in 89m2s, with the net running time recorded as 69m31s.
     
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  4. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Many thanks for this . Is it possible to say how much of the land needed to extend to parracombe is not yet in railway hands ?
     
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  5. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    AIUI the railway already owns all the land from WB up to, and including, the site of the old PE station (currently occupied by a bungalow, which will need to be demolished eventually). The first section going southwards thereafter NOT owned is immediately adjacent to the south end of the station, hence the need to try and 'shoe horn' the temporary terminus into a less-than-ideal space.
     
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  6. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

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  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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  8. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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  9. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    a pedant writes I'm not sure your first sentence is correct. It can't demonstrate what it will be when it's complete until such time as it is comply.
     
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  10. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    Just because CP powers are being asked for, doesn't mean they should be used even if granted. It will always be better to seek a negotiated purchase than generate potential long term bad blood locally through the use of CP.
     
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  11. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

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    A sector table doesn’t necessarily have its pivot at one end, it just needs to be off centre. I present you with the unusual case of Neuenmarkt:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe...40px-DRG_Class_41_on_Neuenmarkt_turntable.JPG


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  12. Michael B

    Michael B Member

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    Thank you for that point (that the speed limit probably explains why no LRO was sought.) Sir James Szlumper confirmed his opinion to the L & B Directors that the L & B 19 mile journey would be done in under an hour when quizzed by Counsel as the L & B Engineer at the March 1895 Select Committee enquiry deciding between the L & B scheme and it's SG competitor. (or neither of them) But Szlumper had been Engineer of the similar (to the intended L & B) NWNGR line for several years by this point. A quick look at a timetable for that line shows that on both the main line and the branch NWNG trains averaged 11 mph. (including stops at intermediate stations) Equating this speed to the L & B's 19 and odd miles would mean an hour an three quarters for the journey. In fact only a little more than was actually achieved with the evidence showing that trains did not always keep to the limit of 16mph (15mph set later by the Southern Railway) all the time.

    Maybe Szlumper was thinking of his fee as Engineer if the Committee plumped for the SG scheme instead of the NG one.
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2022
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  13. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

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    @simon - generally, I'd agree; CP powers are only a last resort, and a negotiated sale is a much better idea, which is what the Trust and Exmoor Associates have been doing. In this specific case, at least one landowner has repeatedly publicly stated their refusal to sell under any circumstances short of a CPO.
     
  14. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Not sure there's anything in the definition which precludes any pivot (or other mechanism, for that matter) allowing the bed to line up with two or more sets of rails, be they adjacent or even commence their journey from the sector plate interlaced. Don't forget that, at it's simplest, the function is to allow a vehicle to be transferred from on line to another in a location where there's no space for a set of points plus a headshunt.

    I've seen a comment in a history of the IWR (which operated the pregrouping Ryde - Ventnor and Bembridge Branch lines) that the author always had the impression that Bembridge's sector plate existed simply as a result of the station having been built too close to the road!
     
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  15. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    A sector plate of the same length as a turntable could have approximately double the radius, which should give an easier curve into a run round loop, would it not?
    Pat
     
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  16. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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    This is all very similar to the situation with the RVR at Robertsbridge in East Sussex. In their case the TWAO order has been applied for and the Public Inquiry has taken place - the report of the inspector is awaited. One of the documents submitted by RVR details the attempts to purchase the parts of the trackbed not in their ownership over a period of many years. Clearly it would be preferable to purchase through negotiation and RVR have stated that they will continue to do this.
     
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  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The precise geometry depends on where the pivot is relative to the centre of the table.

    For example, on the Sheerness Dockyard example I pictured above, the pivot is offset towards the end nearest the point work / platforms. The effect of that is a relatively large angular displacement for a relatively small linear displacement, which is needed to meet the ends of two point roads which have just started to converge at the start of the table. So you need the table to rotate by double the point angle while only moving sideways by about the track gauge. For a narrow gauge example, where (in relative terms) the track spacing is wider, I suspect you’d need the pivot further back, such that you got a proportionately larger linear displacement (sideways) for the same angular displacement. If you built a narrow gauge example with the pivot in the Sheerness position, you would end up either with the platform tracks too close together, or would need a long length of converging plain line, negating the space-saving benefits you desired in the first place.

    Incidentally, everything I’ve ever seen in the literature about the Sheerness example refers to it as a “fan table”, and teh LCDR drawing is labelled as such. I’m not sure, but I wonder if “sector plate” might be one of those terms (like “point frog” and “BR Brunswick green”) used by modellers that are now incorrectly used in the prototype world. I blame Cyril Freezer.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: May 30, 2022
  18. The Signalling Engineer

    The Signalling Engineer New Member

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    Why not keep Killington Lane platform open with the current operational model but build a new short platform on the "branch" to Parracombe at Killington Lane? Then build a push-pull coach for a service (perhaps operated by Axe or a diesel) from Killington Lane to Parracombe? The single coach train would connect with the Woody Bay to Killington Lane services and could be sold as an "add on" to the standard journey. This solution would have the following benefits.
    • allow a return to Parracombe without the need to build additional track infrastructure at Parracombe, thus keeping Parracombe faithful to the original
    • limit the number of passengers descending on Parracombe at one time to a coach load, which could probably be sold to the residents as a good compromise giving the local businesses a steady trickle of customers rather than a flood.
    • reduce the cost of extending to Parracombe and using it as temporary terminus
    • increase revenue from the sale of "add-on" fares (maybe it would have to be a diesel operation to be economic)
    • maintain the current timetable, thus avoiding the problem of having to run fewer services because of a longer journey time
    • create a morning tea, lunch or afternoon tea "package" with local Parracombe businesses
    I know the Southern Railway never used a push-pull train on the L&B but if it had remained open, they could have... They used them elsewhere.

    Bill (I’ll see myself out)
     
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  19. H Cloutt

    H Cloutt Member

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    I remember a conversation I had at a standard gauge Heritage Railway some years back where it was said that some of the volunteers has a 'model railway mentality'. They thought that it was very easy to move pointwork around if you got it wrong!
     
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  20. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    One slight flaw - AIUI it was a condition of the planning consent for KL that the halt etc would be demolished and the site returned to its original condition once the line had been extended southwards, as it was only ever conceived as temporary. No doubt the railway could apply for a modification of the planning condition, but I would suggest that the less 'concessions' that the railway seeks from the ENPA the better as far as 'good public relations' go.
     
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