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Flying Scotsman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by 73129, Aug 24, 2010.

  1. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I’m thinking it would have been looked after far better between 1963 and 1995 than in previous ownership.
    How do I put this, I think there’s a few questions that need to be asked of a certain person who doesn’t live that far away from where I am now regarding its use between 1999 and 2006.
     
  2. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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  3. AlexGWR1994

    AlexGWR1994 Member

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    Here's my footage of Flying Scotsman with a Steam Dreams Excursion from Oxford to Dorridge and back. I filmed her at Yarnton, Hatton North Junction and Dark Lane Road Bridge. I hope you enjoy the video.
     
  4. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

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    She does look magic in the current spec. Apple green be damned.

    Simon
     
  5. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

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    Steam Railway Magazine say that the NRM/Riley’s had doubts that Network Rail would allow it on the mainline with a single chimney. Network Rails response was: “it is up to the locomotive owner to demonstrate the compatibility with our network”. It makes me wonder if the loco will ever be in apple green again even whilst still carrying the double chimney and smoke deflectors. I hope I’m wrong.
     
  6. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    The steam railway article is a right puzzle. Network Rail frankly don’t care if it has single or double chimneys.

    I sense some obstinate decision making here.

    This is her centennial. Ludicrous that she won’t be repainted at a minimum. Who thought that was a good idea?

    The NRM are asking for photos and memories of her 100 years. A more devious version of me might suggest the public should inundate them with apple green photographs and memories…!
     
  7. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    The thing is if Network Rail or the wicked Elf & Safety are so insistent on the fitting of a double chimney/kylchap exhaust. Why haven't they insisted on it being fitted to all mainline approved steam locomotives......... As ever though Sam is there enough salt in the cosmos to take with anything the Steam Beano reports. If they were to say it gets dark at night I'd want a second if not third opinion to confirm that it does. I'm not saying no/denying it. But the Steam Beano is notorious for some of it's claims/reports.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2022
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  8. Sam 60103

    Sam 60103 Member

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    That doesn’t mean I necessarily believe it. I’m just mentioning because I find it hard to believe. Other locos (other Pacific’s even) run with a single chimney no problem.
     
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  9. DismalChips

    DismalChips Member

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    Surely Network Rail aren't insisting on a double chimney, though. "It is up to the locomotive owner to demonstrate compatibility" suggests "These are the parameters you have to meet, how you do that is up to you but this is what we require".
     
  10. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    Should add that it appears to be the classic fuddge. What with each side "blaming and bickeering" with the other for the impass, with regards to this locomotive in particular
     
  11. fergusmacg

    fergusmacg Resident of Nat Pres

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    It ran perfectly well with a single chimney when it was based at what was Steamtown and worked regular turns up the S&C supported by the Big Blue Snowplow (Sir Nigel) & Popeye (Nelson) - each with differing front end arrangements, and non of the crews I knew ever said there had been any 'problems' with 4472 in that form. I do wonder what George Hinchcliffe would be saying now with all this made up clap trap. . . . .
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2022
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  12. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    You could also make the case that returning the locomotive to single chimney condition would be beneficial for the long term working health of the engine. It worked for years as a preserved locomotive not only in this country but it also was shipped elsewhere to work and performed well in in the condition that the man originally responsible for its preservation intended.

    When a dispute arose between the NCB and the miners coal had to be imported and there were concerns expressed about the quality. Train weights were reduced as a consequence but 4472 was out on the S & C with this fuel and though no high performance was required the engine did its job. A stop was made at Dent (if I remember correctly, though it might have been Garsdale) and as was usual in those days there were quite a few BR people on board and during the halt they gathered and talked as railway people do. The engine was felt to have always been a good one. Now the Pacific did have periods when it was not considered as one of the better of the A3s (by whom exactly?) but in terms of what these people understood about the engine it was felt to be good.

    So what changed? We are told that the single blastpipe broke, ditto the single chimney. A d0uble Kylchap does improve the design but working thirteen bogies and occasionally more was nothing unusual with the single chimney. You were not supposed to exceed 60mph back then but engines did.

    A single chimney and associated blastpipe was not available but a double was and people were interested in trying it out, understandable in a way considering that Kylchap fitted A3s had been gone for many years at the time of this change. A new single chimney and blastpipe would not have been cheap to produce it would have required patterns and foundry and machining time. Avoiding doing it presented a cost and time saving. Cost saving exercises, sometimes needed and also particularly popular as a mechanism to make use of in order to justify not doing something, particularly something that other people would like. You might say that if people would like something done they should pay for it but that particular gift might not be well received and may well be countered by a out and out refusal to accept it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2022
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I never read Steam Railway. When did they say this? Was it April 1st?
     
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  14. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Any railway periodical that reports unattributable stuff - who in Network Rail said what they are supposed to have said? - deserves to be ignored. If a reputable engineer were to say so then that would be a different matter.

    Let's just focus on getting an expert assessment of the work to be done, a sensible time frame for doing it to include a 'spruce up' for its birthday and a reassurance that what seems to me to be a pretty tight timescale is achievable.
     
  15. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    I wouldn’t be surprised if the tight timetable is a driver for this decision. Also a desire for the NRM to be seen to be successfully project-managing the first Flying Scotsman overhaul after their fiasco of the last one (which was undoubtedly a failure of the NRM management of the day, on the evidence of the Meanley report). In these circumstances they probably just don’t want to take the risk of any major changes this time. A risk which might’ve been easier to manage without such a tight timetable but there we are.

    The cost of conversion back to single-chimney isn’t the issue. I’ve said I would pay for it, several times in this thread over the years, and I’m sure I wouldn’t be alone in this.
     
  16. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    Someone had to decide in good time to return the engine to single chimney condition and it looks like nobody wanted to make that decision or rather nobody wanted that decision to be made. Again some might have wanted to return the engine to typical A3 of the 1930s condition but they were not in position to make that decision or have any bearing on any decision making process.

    It appears that there is no single chimney, no blastpipe and none of the ancillary parts and fittings either. C19 has disrupted the earnings over the past two/three years but no one thought about asking for help in funding the required components or maybe some did but were forbidden from running any appeal regardless of how justified it might appear under the peculiar nature of the current times.

    Some might say that it would have been impossible to get the parts manufactured but 2007 has progressed and so have other new builds. 4498/60007 has returned to working order and so have other locomotives. If the NRM thought that it was impossible in the circumstances to have the parts made the evidence of progress on privately owned and group owned machines shows that they were mistaken or maybe events gave them a good excuse not to even consider trying.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2022
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  17. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Build a new one of this beauty and "Flying Scotsman" can remain in present condition.:Happy:

    Knut
     
  18. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    How many times have we heard that a coat of paint is just a coat of paint though?

    It's literally the bare minimum that could be done for the locomotive. I think sensible people will understand timescales for putting together a single chimney format and accept a compromise. But to dismiss the LNER livery out of hand is just madness frankly.

    There's a deep feeling I have that the NRM have misjudged this badly on the livery front. It's the centenary. What other time for a return to apple green is more appropriate?

    Seriously, I cannot fathom the thinking here.
     
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  19. acorb

    acorb Part of the furniture

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    I suspect that this synopsis is very close to the truth. Cost, time and decision making.

    If Flying Scotsman is nearby I will go and see it, but I will not pay the premium to travel behind it and it doesn't excite me beyond that. I therefore couldn't care what shade of green it is in. Fortunately I am in the minority here and Joe Public is willing to fork out, but they won't care what it looks like either. There was the debate about putting it into BR appearance from the previous LNER hybrid livery, as to whether the public would continue to recognise it - it hasn't made any difference. The hybrid livery came about due to the length of time it had spent in apple green and was thought by its then owner to be key to its marketing, the NRM haven proven this very wrong.

    There are a number of other locos celebrating their centenary soon, some of which will be mainline registered too when they turn 100. A remarkable achievement. One (Scotsman's old rival) has just been restored at Didcot and looks amazing, let's celebrate these.
     
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  20. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    I challenge this, I don't think that's true based on a cursory look of the NRM's own website and gift shop.

    https://www.railwaymuseum.org.uk/flying-scotsman

    upload_2022-4-5_11-22-50.png

    upload_2022-4-5_11-23-28.png

    I mean for god's sake, even their wall clock has LNER 4472 branding on it!

    upload_2022-4-5_11-25-8.png

    Every time I see Scotsman in the media, it's rarely in the BR green livery - the recent Lloyds adverts were the only examples I can remember of a BR liveried Scotsman appearing in the media that prominently.

    Hornby's ever-present Railroad model of Flying Scotsman is also LNER 4472 (as it was in 1928).

    The livery is a big deal, and has always been a big part of the Scotsman story. Ignore it at your peril..
     

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