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4920 Dumbleton Hall

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by david1984, Apr 6, 2012.

  1. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Are they not different classes? That is like claiming an N15 and an S15 are the same.

    At best that adds another 3 operational locos to the pool. So we are up to 4 in total running at the moment. It is hardly Black 5, 8F or Bulleid light pacific levels.

    Are there more Halls than there are of some other classes? For sure. Are we falling over operational Halls at lines up and down the country? No we are not.

    I don't buy the argument there are more x than y therefore it is ok to lose one of x as if it were a zero sum game.

    The vagaries of survival can hardly be held against the survivors.

    How many A4s do you need? I can't help but think if the curators of the North American A4s said 'let's strip them of parts and sell they to Disneyland' there would be howls of outrage.

    ex-LNER pre-1923 probably does better than pre-1923 ex-GWR, post 1948 ECML does better than post 1948 WR, swings and roundabouts.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  2. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    Why is it I’m seeing parallels with a certain LMS Pacific, those in charge seem to (or have seemed to) think ‘It’s my toy and nobody else can play with it’?
     
  3. WishIHadAName

    WishIHadAName New Member

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    Its not been scrapped and if its sale has helped preserve an entire GWR branchline for the future surely thats better? Id rather lose a loco to static display and see the SDR survive and grow. It must be home to one of the larger collections of GWR smaller engines now. A restore and run agreement wouldn't of given the SDR as much money I doubt? Hopefully the money is used to give the railway a better future with more covered accommodation or other upgraded infrastructure.
     
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  4. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

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    It wouldn’t have sat rotting in a siding for another 20 years though. There were 3 or 4 other potential buyers who wanted to return it to steam. Ultimately though, WB had the deepest pockets.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    An N15 and S15 are completely different classes though. A better comparison might be between Urie and Maunsell S15s - detail differences, but the one clearly a development of the other.


    I think there is a risk of fetishising survival for its own sake. Would there be howls of outrage if a surviving A4 was cut up? Probably, but if it hadn't been preserved in the first place, we'd still celebrate the fact that five had survived. Moreover, in my eyes at least, breadth is more important than depth. Of the Maunsell S15s, there is at least one that is likely ultimately to succumb to rust. Would I be upset if it happened - yes. But if it had never survived in the first place, but by some quirk an H15 been preserved instead? I wouldn't then be mourning the fact that only four S15s had survived from BR: four S15s and an H15 would be better than five S15s. If you had a time machine and offered LNER enthusiasts six A4s; or six from a pool of A4s, Peppercorn A1, Gresley P1/2/V4 etc, I suspect most would choose the variety.

    When all is said and done, there is insufficient resource (money, space, skills) in the heritage railway world at the moment. Dumbleton Hall hasn't been lost; it's not the Binbrook Crab. It is a loco of which many similar examples exist, which was slowly decaying while stored outside, largely inaccessible to enthusiasts. Now it has a future in which it is under cover and on display; components from it may help progress overhaul of another loco; and there has been an injection of cash into a railway. And on your original count of the pool of survivors as being limited to "[t]he fleet so to speak is really only 4 strong - Hagley, Pitchford, Kinlet and Rood Ashton" - well all of those still continue to exist. So if you choose to define the pool of survivors as those operational locos, this sale has not changed that pool one iota.

    I wouldn't mind betting that, in 25 years, Dumbleton Hall will still survive but some "preserved" locos in this country won't. But hey, at least they weren't sold to Japan.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  6. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    For Harry Potter fans, surely the name Olton Hall is irrelevant. Don't they expect to see something called Hogwarts Castle?
     
  7. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Note the "howls of outrage" at the decision of John Cameron to withdraw his A4 from operations and have it as a static display item in a museum building on his land. Locomotives will survive as long as their owners are prepared to fund them and the consequent problems are well shown by the current problems with 6201 Princess Elizabeth. Continuous running depends on funds and once those funds are not available it becomes a question of which philanthropist will provide funding. Given past experience it won't be the linesiders who bemoan the lack / loss of particular engines so it's a simple case of putting your hands in your pocket or accept the loss. To date there are many appeals for funds and the enthusiast budget can only stretch so far to support favoured locomotives. As the old saying quotes "You pays your money - You takes your choice".
     
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  8. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    That isn't the point.

    You can find a pinhead to dance on to claim that x is really part of one class or that y is actually several classes if you wish but that doesn't alter the fact that the pool of locos is small. The idea of there being loads of Halls is a reflection of people having a mental map still stuck in the 1970s and 1980s when relative to the small pool of mainline locos available there were a lot of Halls and Modified Halls running.

    One Hall, one Modified Hall and one 8F been lost to conversions. And in recent times the Binbrook Crab has been lost. The former to indifference and the latter to negligence. We can add this to that list.

    If there is a fetishisation of anything in railway preservation it is of the single survivor. I dislike the explicit idea that because there are several of a class that somehow it is of less value so what happens to it matters less. How it is kept is irrelevant. The second point is how this has come to be. What is relevant is that many people including the shareholders thought it was being sold to be restored to operational order not to be stripped of parts. Had it been upfront that the stripping and shipping was the aim and everyone been aware and it agreed then fair enough.

    There is a lot of hypocrisy. If the producers had decided that a Bulleid/S15/U/P or whatever was the 'right type of engine' for the Hogwarts and had come along and said yes we want to buy loco x to restore from the Bluebell and then stripped it of parts and then sent if off to Japan would you be 'oh well plenty more Bulleids, Us, S15s in the sea' or if it had been your precious H would you really be 'well at least it is undercover and safe and not rusting in a headshunt'? I find that hard to believe that if it were Blackmoor Vale that was on a boat minus 50 tons that you would be shrugging your shoulders. As Arsene Wenger said 'Everyone thinks they have the prettiest wife at home'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  9. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Be careful. Firstly it would be surprising if the notoriously closed mouth WCR had announced they were proposing to sell it on. That's always an invitation for the vendor to investigate cutting out the middle man. But more to the point rhere might have been suspicions that WCR were proposing to sell it on, and there might have been care taken not to mention the possibility, but that's a very very long way from misleading.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    But the pool of Halls isn’t that small. You have artificially restricted it to just four, as if the others don’t exist. In which case, there are still more Halls than Merchant Navy Pacifics …

    Rarity has a value: if in a parallel universe 400 Black 5s has been preserved but no other locomotives at all, you could run all the heritage lines in the country - but it would be less interesting.

    In any case - if survival is important, 4920 has in no way been lost! It isn’t the Binbrook Crab; it is no more lost to preservation than Flying Scotsman, Pendennis Castle, 30053, Repton or Dunrobin were lost. They all went abroad, and in time they all came back.

    I think people are getting sniffy that a theme park isn’t an appropriate setting. But in what way is it worse than a loco decaying out of sight on some siding somewhere? Or is it that it has gone abroad - but in which case, better return all those Canalettos and Rembrandts and Monets in our museums, if the only correct setting for an object of cultural value is in its home country.

    Tom
     
  11. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    If you refer back to my post you will see that I was responding to @Sidmouth's remark that "I am led to believe and I think another poster has also noted that key members of the DHPS committee were aware . They chose to withhold that from the other committee members fearing that the sale would not be approved". Nothing about third parties or middlemen. My observation was simply that, if true, there are serious questions to ask about the legitimacy of the transaction.
     
  12. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    No. The pool of operational Halls is the same size/smaller as the pool of operational S15s. I've no more artificially restricted it than you have inflated it. If all those restoration from Barry wrecks were on the cusp of fruition I'd include them in the pool and the pool would still not be that big and that still doesn't mean that the loco loses value.

    You seem to miss the whole missing 50 tons of metal, all of which makes returning it all the harder, more costly and all of which puts further barriers up. So yes it is as lost as a loco can be without being the Binbrook Crab.

    Actually, I think there is a lot of hypocrisy about it going abroad considering all the locos that have been imported over the years for heritage railways. So no. I have no problem with anything being anywhere else.

    What I object to is the idea that how many of a class exist determines how valuable it is. It is a sloppy way to try historical artefacts. To use your artwork example, no one says 'well there are a lot of other Monet paintings in museums so it doesn't matter if this one is lost.' And like I say, if it were a loco from your railway, you wouldn't be saying 'well it's only a P, plenty more where that came from'.
     
  13. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

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    I think there's only 1 operational 8F at the moment?

    Jon
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Of course I wouldn't want to lose a P. But if you forced the issue and said "which do you choose - one of four Ps, or the unique H?", of course you would choose to prioritise the unique loco.

    Those decisions happen all the time in any case. We have a preserved LCDR carriage running that was converted to a disabled saloon. One of the explicit considerations in choosing that carriage for the conversion rather than any other was because at least three other identical carriages are known to exist, including operational examples on the Bluebell and KESR - so less loss of unique fabric in converting "one of many".

    Tom
     
  15. Cartman

    Cartman Well-Known Member Account Suspended

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    In time, I'm sure it will come back, like the M7, Schools and Pendennis Castle. Harry Potter probably won't be a thing in 20 years time.

    I agree that it hasn't been lost
     
  16. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    I'm wondering if there is some confusion over the ownership and timeline involved. According to the Wikipedia entry the loco belonged to the Dartmouth Steam Railway, where it was used for many years before being stored on the Dart Valley Railway (a totally separate organisation) pending overhaul or disposal. Apparently it was sold to Warners in December 2020 and in February 2021 it moved to Carnforth for cosmetic restoration by WCR. If this account is correct then neither the DVR nor WCR had any part in the disposal and the transaction was purely between the DSR (a private company) & Warners.
     
  17. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

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    It was never owned by the Dartmouth steam railway, although ran there on a hire agreement following restoration, being owned by the Dumbleton Hall group who subsequently took over the Dart Valley line and morphed into the SDR.
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I wonder, was any 'end of life' provision included in the sale contract? On the FfR, Alco Mountaineer has one built into the agreement which saw it move to Gwynedd. Although I suspect J.K Rowling's 'Wizarding World' will remain 'a thing' for the foreseeable future (and Japan is as good a place to avoid hardline Christian fundamentalists as anywhere .... 'Thou shall not suffer a witch to live' and all that), fame is a fickle thing. Who knows? It might even end up outliving it's siblings here.
     
  19. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    There's a limited amount of use for Class 5 locos on the main line, especially if unassisted.

    Whether they have been "lost" depends on your point of view. Their prospects for restoration in their original forms were extremely slim, but they are being reincarnated in new forms (one already completed).
     
  20. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the correction , Peter.
    Can you tell me if the Dumbleton Hall owners' group retained independence from the SDR ? i.e. at the time the loco was sold to Warners would the owners have been the SDR or the old owners group ?
     

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