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Lynton and Barnstaple - Operations and Development

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by 50044 Exeter, Dec 25, 2009.

  1. Tobbes

    Tobbes Member

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    Thanks Martyn.
     
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  2. ConRod1

    ConRod1 New Member

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    Thanks @Old Kent Biker

    Could you clarify what was the area of the building, as in the one taken down.

    I think you’ll find that you don’t need planning permission for the demolition of small buildings in England or Wales, provided that the external volume of the building is less than 50 cubic metres.

    I believe that, as long as the footings remain in place for the purposes future planning applications to prove the area of the previous building then there’s no issue.

    Given the state of the previous building which was in fact unusable and unsafe, the new terms seem more than reasonable for the purposes of volunteer accommodation,

    No more than 28 successive days per person is more than ample notwithstanding a person can go home for a day or two and then have another 28 days. How many volunteers do you expect will stay more than a week, or fortnight at a push?


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  3. Old Kent Biker

    Old Kent Biker Member

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    The conditions are 28 days per annum, but I agree, it is unlikely to be a limit many will have to worry about, but it is a restriction that could have been avoided.

    I believe that demolishing a building or part thereof
    without the owners' (The L&B CIC) consent is at the very least criminal damage... Let's just leave it there shall we? What's done is done, we are where we are, now is the time to look forward...

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  4. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    I would agree that the wording is confusing.

    I can not believe that the intention is that the total occupancy of the building during a single year should be only 28 days, which would be the rough equivalent of 1 day every other weekend. How does that fit with the general dislike of 'weekenders' who buy cottages in the West Country that then stand empty for most of the year with no benefit to the local community?

    To quote " The property shall not be occupied as a permanent dwelling and shall not be occupied by any one person for a period exceeding 28 continuous days in any calendar year. The owner or operator shall maintain a register of occupants for each calendar year..."

    Note the specific reference to 28 continuous days. If the total number of days in the year were to be only 28, then why would it matter if they were continuous or disjoint? As I read it, a person could stay for 27 days, go away for a couple days, come back for another 27 days and repeat the process ad infinitum, yet still meet that condition.

    There is a requirement for 'a register of occupants for each calendar years' - note the use of the plural, allowing for there to be more than one occupant each year.

    I wonder if the CIC has clarified the meaning with NDC?
     
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2021
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  5. Old Kent Biker

    Old Kent Biker Member

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    As I understand from an Internet search, the owners of the site (The L&B CIC) closed Chelfham Station to all visitors in October 2018, on finding out that unauthorised demolition of part of the 1960s extension had taken place some time beforehand.

    Following their investigation and any "making safe" and other actions that may have been required, The site was reopened in February 2019.

    Planning Permission (to replace "The Lodge" was applied for in October 2020 and granted in January 2021 with the conditions previously noted.

    I SURMISE from this that, as a result of the demolition, pre-planning advice from NDC was that the grandfather rights for residential use were lost, and the application was drafted accordingly to suit the changed circumstances.
     
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  6. ConRod1

    ConRod1 New Member

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    That’s my interpretation too for what it’s worth I’m running by a colleague in the office on Monday, just for my own peace of mind.


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  7. ConRod1

    ConRod1 New Member

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    Agreed, I’m not up for a bun fight. Just wanted to make a point though I would disagree with criminal damage as the ingredients for such an offence are not present. Likely the reason no case was bought, arguably there would have been scope to bring civil proceedings however, given the condition of the building and the risk it posed its likely any action will have been stuck out.

    That said, what’s done is done. The only point I was trying to make is now credit is being taken for actions originally made out as criminal damage.

    Let’s move on and hopefully, on reflection, said volunteer can be forgiven notwithstanding the removal of that building allowed Chelfham to look the way it does today which is nothing other than amazing and is a credit to the volunteers.


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  8. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I would personally struggle with a colleague who refused to use a routinely available form of communication on which not just I but all of my other colleagues relied. Im not sure I’d go as far as the organisation you mention, but it would certainly cause me to lose confidence in that individual’s ability to work as part of a board, especially if matters were urgent and time restricted.

    I don’t condone the apparently brutal treatment involved but suspect there is a deeper story than is apparent in that telling.


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  9. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    If only a few people had had a little more patience and respect for the rules...[/QUOTE]if only management had the decency and respect to respond to the emails from volunteers regarding such issues then such actions and consequences may have been avoided, a long term supporter and volunteer of the railway was simply made to be the scapegoat when in all honesty the man at the top who didn't have the decency to reply to John's emails is just as much to blame, if not more so with the position that he holds
     
  10. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Flip that on its head - someone demolished part of your property without permission while planning permissions were being sought for replacement accommodation. Whilst it is frustrating if management do not respond,it doesn't give anyone the right to just carry on with what they perceive is the 'right thing'
    Could someone not have gone to Woody Bay when the relevant people were there? Could a phone call not have been made (rather than a more easily missed/ignored email)?
    As others have said, the days of just ploughing ahead into a restoration (especially a building or civil engineering works) are long gone.
     
  11. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    At the time planning permissions were not actively being sought,that was part of the problem ,also,emails were sent on numerous occasions highlighting the very fact that things needed to be done to move the project forward,but it is interesting that when management need news to give to members because they have nothing else,they can soon agree to do whatever it takes to push a project forward,even putting it up for an award when the project itself is only 75-80% complete
     
  12. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    What is a little strange, and the conditions attached to Chelfam are by no means unique is that at a time of housing stress permanent occupation of a building intended for residential use is prohibited.
     
  13. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    But how do you know that? I assume you do not sit on the board, so you therefore would not be privy to everything that is going on in the background.
    As I said previously, perhaps email is not the best communication method. Did anyone try phoning the relevant people or going to WB to meet them?
     
  14. ConRod1

    ConRod1 New Member

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    Further Grandfather rights are usually abolished with environmental concerns and policy. Given the use of the land was for railway traffic, it’s likely the ground is heavily contaminated as such not fit for residential use whether or not it had been previously as such. At least not without lots of testing etc.

    It’s notable there’s no mention of the loss of grandfather rights being appealed, suggesting so obfuscation to detract from the issue.

    I can’t help but speculate if there was a plan to remortgage chelfham on the QT. That would be a reason to ignore emails etc. and a reason to get in a tail spin.

    We may never know but the fact remains, open honest lines of communication are of necessity.


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  15. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    as i understand it the lodge didn't have residential status otherwise there wouldnt have been a suggestion of it to be transferred from the station,would that actually have happened given that the lodge is in a woodland and it basically isnt a fixed building whereas planning is for a fixed building,the limitations are that no one person can reside for more than 28 days at a time and it must be railway volunteer related ,apart from the railway link i think thats pretty much standard for lodges ,huts and the like
     
  16. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    You are correct I don't sit on the board, I am relying on what I was told at the time, this was some 3 years ago and this action was the culmination of many previous months, as I understand it questions were also asked to visiting board members but response was never received, had they been actively seeking planning back then I'm sure what happened wouldn't have caused a 24 month hiatus, planning actually went in some 2 years after the event and the decision was made within 3 months, volunteers have been going to chelfam on a Sunday and Wednesday for at least 8 years so it's not as if those in charge didn't know about the course of restoration that was taking place
     
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  17. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

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    Of course they knew and I doubt that anyone would deny that. The point is, you don't start pulling down large chunks of a building unless you have permission. If that takes 8 days, 8 weeks or 8 years then that's what it takes. If the delay causes all the volunteers to walk away then I'm sure the L&B would start to ask some questions.
    It's the same as if someone was working on the restoration of an 0-4-0ST loco. The volunteers can just decide to tur it into a 0-4-2 tender loco because it would be more useful/interesting etc without consulting the owner. And if the owner doesn't reply to enquiries then the work doesn't happen. It really is quite simply when you think about it.
     
  18. Meatman

    Meatman Member

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    As I said previously I don't condone the actions that were taken but don't just blame the volunteers, there are 9 trustees and I believe upto 10 directors and not one of them it seems in your eyes is to blame, it takes two to tango and if you blatantly ignore your volunteers then you shouldn't be in the job, these actions were bourn out of frustration of being ignored, both sides have learnt from the consequences and even now with the progress that has been made some issues are still being ignored by the management that they are well aware of, in your last few posts you have laid the blame solely on the volunteers, maybe that's why very few new ones are coming onto the scene, you certainly got me thinking about knocking it all on the head
     
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  19. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    As an occasional 'judge' for the NRHA, I was surprised a little when I heard that one of our entries this year was for Chelfham. However it is not unknown for organisations which have a longer-term project to submit just a part of it as a discrete entity for judging. Then of course, when we visit such places, we have to be careful which parts we are meant to look at and which to ignore!

    NOTE: just for clarification, I would point out that - to avoid any suggestion of possible bias - I always recuse myself from judging any entry from an organisation with which I am associated in any active sort of way :) As a result I did not see the entry details for Chelfham, so I am not aware of exactly which parts of the site were included.

    On a general point, some bodies do submit entries far too early and which are clearly not ready, and there are occasions when the NHRA suggest to them that it would be better to defer to the following year. On the other hand, I can recall judging one signalling installation which had been so long in gestation, coupled with the fact that 'administrative oversights' meant that the entry was not submitted until about 3 years after completion, that by the time I visited it some parts were clearly in need of repair and refurbishment ! They had made so little, if any, attempt to 'spruce up' the place in readiness for judging that they had not even bothered to polish the brass...:-(

    I am pleased however to be able to report now that 'Chelfham Station Restoration (Lynton & Barnstaple Railway Community Interest Company)' is now on the shortlist of 3 for The Hendy & Pendle Trust Volunteers Award, a fact of which the CIC will have been informed already. The actual award selection will be announced at the Award ceremony in London on 1st December and (hopefully) will be streamed at www.nrha.org.uk
     
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  20. 62440

    62440 New Member

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    I’m not convinced that “born out of frustration” cuts it as a legitimate reason, as a general rule. But I’m also not convinced that this is the right forum for the specific issue, particularly when an individual case is involved.
     

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