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Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    For sure. My point is that there are restoration projects that will take a long time, there are overhaul projects that will take a long time etc and then there are some that will be fast if they develop a critical mass and funding. Just as new build projects can stall so can overhauls and restorations.

    A new build can take 20 years, but so can a Barry restoration and so can the overhaul of an engine that has run in preservation.

    Just a handful of recent projects come to mind - we've got 80150 which is totally unrestored and is being restored on an as and when. I suspect that this will be a long haul project despite the obvious usefulness of the loco to the MHR. You have locos like 4150 which has made very rapid progress more recently. And then you have other locos that have been out of use for many years and are subject to restorations that take time ie 27. The SVR workshops are currently hosting new builds, long term restorations and long term overhauls which I think shows how the three strands of loco restoration can and do co-exist.

    I think you will always have new build projects just like you will always have new ideas for lines. People like to dream and sometimes they do come to fruition and sometimes they don't.
     
  2. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Tom's point concerning diagraming is a vital issue I don't recall previously seeing actually being mentioned by name in this context.

    Not closely following modern diesel traction, @Bikermike's example of the 66s was unknown to me, but indicates a surprisingly comforting degree of continuity.

    The point concerning the spares inventory needed to maintain a superannuated (if charming) selection of too many classes is one I'd imagine predates William Stroudley, but one which continued to become subordinated due to other economic factors (or penury as it's more properly called).

    If you think the Southern kept some antiques, spare a thought for the workshop staff at Inchicore and Limerick. The GSR fleet took diversity to a whole different level!
     
  3. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    That said, there probably wasn't a huge stockholding of spares as such for the older classes; what was needed was probably made to order as required.
     
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  4. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Or cannibalising existing locos ...

    The other point about diagramming is the staff cost, which we are prone to forget in modern day consideration of heritage railways. If the Bulleid pacific arrives at Padstow and has to work back to Wadebridge for service, then steaming another "more suitable" smaller loco for the return service while the pacific works back light engine in any case not only incurs the steaming cost of the second engine, but also the wages of an additional crew.

    Tom
     
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  5. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    New build v Barry wrecks is a perennial issue up there with the endless livery debate. One issue is that several of the "Barry wrecks" duplicate existing locomotives that have already been steamed i.e multiple Bulleid Pacific's [some of which were bought out of service at the end of steam], similarly LMS Black 5s [again one or two were bought out of service at the end of steam] and an assortment of BR standard designs [with the same proviso as before]. Where as the new builds have concentrated on extinct types that weren't preserved/survived into preservation. There is IMO space for both and as has already been mentioned the ability of the new builds preserving the skill and practices need to maintain and repair the existing fleet of preserved locomotives.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  6. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Indeed and the flip side is why spend money and time restoring a Barry wreck Hall, Bulleid or Black 5 when there locos like 5000 which hasn't run since 1990, or Hinderton Hall that hasn't run since the 1970s. And then the flipside is why restore a black 5 when there are plenty of working examples already and while there is no 'insert your favour extinct class you'd like new built'. But as I say, I think there is room for all three strands and I don't think they take away from one another but are mutually complimentary. All of them maintain different vital skills to keep the heritage railway sector going. All of them are needed to maintain transferable skills such as project management and fundraising skills.
     
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  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    If that doesn't drag the debate into the realms of treading on eggshells between ASLEF & NUR and company officials, I dunno what does! :)

    Re: Irish workshop practises to keep obsolete locos in harness. The Inchicore scrap lines were the stuff of legend, with many locos left rusting away for years on end. I've seen similar images from Mullingar, Rocksavage (Cork) and Limerick, so the possibility of cannibalisation was certainly there. Come the final end of steam, the efficiency with which redundant locos were dispatched was depressingly impressive.
     
  8. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

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    Very well said Monkey Magic:)
     
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  9. 2392

    2392 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks you Guys. I must admit as I've remarked, that I wasn't dismissing out of hand the restoration of those"Barry Wrecks" that haven't been restored. Rather that there's IMO something of donor fatigue when it comes to the "duplicate" loco's as I've called them. Rather that the new builds offer something different. You both make quite valid counter points.
     
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  10. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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    Chapeleon explicitly said that he was impressed by the way Greeley steadily persisted with the Hush Hush in its original high pressure, water tube boiler, compound form.
     
  11. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Gresley would've benefitted greatly from the rather more generous loading gauge Chapelon had to play with.
     
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  12. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    I recall reading an article 20 some years ago about the Union Pacific's decision to overhaul FEF no 844 at Cheyenne. They had kept and maintained that locomotive and a challenger 4-6-6-4 since steam had fallen out of use in the early 1950's, but due to financial priorities in the early 80's, the UP along with most other class 1 railroads had given up on its heritage steam. Then, new CEO or whatever in the 90's-"let's get the steam trains out, what fantastic PR". Both locomotives had spent too much time sat outside in the intervening years, it was decided that the FEF was the best candidate, and it was taken into the shops for a complete overhaul. There was no shortage of equipment and machine shop skills, Alco drawings were on file, and the loco and tender were stripped down, sandblasted, welded, machined, painted, with a budget that British groups could only dream of.
    When it came to putting it all back together, they hit a snag. 40 years had elapsed since anyone had had to re-assemble a steam locomotive, and although horns and bearing blocks had been machined to tolerance with a CNC precision unavailable in the days of steam, what should have been a rolling chassis was clearly not right. Few American railroads ever built their own locomotives, and the team working on 844 simply did not know what it was they did not know. The answer came in the form of an 80 year old gent, a retired UP employee, who had, as a young man, assisted with re-wheeling some locomotives. He, according to the story, asked what had happened to the shims on disassembly, which they had apparently been thrown away as scrap.....

    If a group build a locomotive from scratch, as in the case of 60163, every single operation has to be completed, and those skills must be found if the job is to be done. Currently the clan project has identified that British and european industry have lost the ability to form square section helical springs. The whole supply chain of trapezoidal spring steel, and the ability to turn that into a square section spring is gone. When the BR standards were built , such items were commonplace. Solving this issue for 72010 will solve it for the two Brits, 71000 and any other heritage loco with 70 year old side control springs
     
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  13. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Round section side control springs have already been produced for a number of LMS/BR locomotives. Indeed, the Royal Scot class were so fitted by BR in the 1950s. In preservation round section springs have been made suitable for the Ivatt 4 2-6-0, Ivatt 2 2-6-0 and 2-6-2 tanks, Stanier Class 5 2-6-0, Stanier 8F 2-8-0s, Std 4 2-6-0s, Std 4 2-6-4 tanks (pony truck only), Std 3-2-6-2 tank, Std 2 2-6-0s and 2-6-2 tanks and 9F 2-10-0s. Also, some Stanier Class 5s have had round section springs made which are a spring within a spring. Also BR converted one type of LMS/BR steam brake shaft return spring from rectangular section to round section and I believe that the other type of return spring has recently been converted, as well.
     
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  14. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    If we look at the analysis carried out using the VAMPIRE computer modelling technique for the original P2 the problem lies with the third coupled axle. Given that the main frames are 3' 11.25" apart compared with the 4' 1.5" in the Pacifics these was some room for manoeuvre here and given that once you are beyond the driven axle you can engineer for a larger degree of lateral movement with respect to this axle should you need to.

    The much belated change to the pony truck design will have significant consequences for the behaviour of the leading end of the engine. When worn the swing link truck failed to guide the front of the engine in a satisfactory manner and the weight redistribution caused by its movement was concerning. When the leading truck was failing to perform as it needed to the leading coupled axle is believed to have had the role of guiding the front of the engine thrust upon it - not good.

    With the redesign this sorry state of affairs will not be repeated. As you are probably aware I am a believer in having the use of Zara or Krauss-Helmholtz available for use (amongst so many other things) should it be needed. The P2 might be considered a large engine in the UK but in reality it is quite modest and the loading gauge/dynamic envelope sets limits which we just have to work around if possible. A more advanced/complicated chassis design might at one level appear desirable but it appears not to be necessary or even possible. And this does not touch upon the thorny issue of "type approval".

    On a side note; have you had a look at the Franklin Railway Supply Company's Patent for the valve gear to be fitted to the proposed Lima 4-8-6 of 1948? It is Patent No 2,518,403. It is of interest in a way because the P2 team must be close to completing their version of the Type B gear.
     
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  15. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    Yes BUT.... because British Railways did such conversions, they have grandfathers rights. It would be pretty easy to specify a spring of dimensions Xx by Y, of strength N lbf. If British Railways had put round section springs on a Std 6, 7 or 8, the Hengist team wouldn't be having to scratch their heads. As it is, either the spring must accord with the drawings, and be square section, or permission obtained to deviate from the original lot 242 specification.
     
  16. Hermod

    Hermod Member

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    LNER Gauge would easily pass fourcylinders like GWR,LNWR,LMS .
    Four 18 inch cylinders with the outher two on 7 feet(almost) separation would have given more than enough freedom for a KH or Zara truck.
    But then there would be no use for conjugation(Gresley Patent) or double link swing pony truck(Gresley Patent I presume).
    It was management and CME that was to big for LNER
     
  17. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    Did you not see the words "In preservation" in my post?
     
  18. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I did, and I don't want this to to turn into a peeing contest between us. Can I ask, though, have any of those locomotives which have benefitted from a round spring conversion been mainline approved where there had not been round spring conversions done by British Railways on that type of locomotive? I believe that it is a problem, certainly on the modern Network Rail railway, that type approval is much more stringent than hitherto. I am saying that the problem to be solved for 72010 is that of getting a side control spring approved for the mainline, rather than that there is technical difficulty in obtaining springs which will perform the function adequately.
     
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  19. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

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    Indeed, and having to create the loco virtually and put through the simulator software is a a lot of dosh...
     
  20. std tank

    std tank Part of the furniture

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    You would have to ask individual loco owners that question. 45551 is fitted with round section side control springs on the bogie, as is at least one of the Class 5s at the NYMR. I don't know what the situation is with I. Riley's Class 5s or the Jubilee 4-6-0s
     
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