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The skill of the Engineman

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Big Al, Aug 22, 2021.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Over the past few days I've been privileged to have extended conversations with three steam drivers - two from the main line and one from a heritage line. It got me thinking about something that perhaps we take for granted but is definitely something that many of us have a view about especially when something happens to promote debate - i.e. the skill of crewing a steam locomotive.

    With that in mind, I've started this thread in the hope that perhaps we can have a more considered exchange of views, perhaps informed by those who are in a good position to keep the discussion focused and not too anecdotal. So I'll start it off and see where, if anywhere, it goes.

    I hope we will all agree that no two steam locomotives are the same or will perform the same, even if they belong to the same class. It's also true that different locos need different firing and driving techniques to get the best out of them. On the main line there is not the luxury of having many examples of the same class operating to be able to compare 'like with like' even if that were a good thing to do in the first place. Perhaps the number of Black 5s that are around do provide some possibilities.

    The other factor that hopefully will also not be particularly contentious is the advantage of loco crews being familiar with particular locos (plus the finer detail of routes, for that matter). A good example is the recent addition to the Carnforth stable of British India Line. It's not an LMS loco and was initially unfamiliar to most West Coast crews but over time has become a consistently performing loco able to produce good performances. By all accounts it is rated well by 10A much as those familiar with the class when they were operational down south already knew.

    When it comes to talking about how locomotives should be driven I wouldn't presume to comment much further than to observe that techniques may vary and for a new crew, it's a good idea to first tune in to the knowledge base of individual loco owners. What works on Loco A may not work so well on Loco B. Every day can be a school day on the footplate.

    Two specific matters have surfaced recently that concern me about main line operating.

    The first is when a loco is underpowered for the train length. This has historical precedents and guidance exists according to the time of year and power rating of the loco. To take a specific example, Galatea has been working the Pendle Dalesman recently with a load of 13. The industry standard for a Jubilee is 11 and that is before we discuss the nature of the gradients over which it is hauling these loads. My concern is why the standard is being exceeded. Of course, I don't own the locomotive and neither do I operate the train so at one level it's irrelevant what I think. But why should loco men be expected to do it? It's lucky that the loco seems to punch above its weight but that is not the point. And what about the fireman who has to produce the steam?

    My second concern is when some enthusiasts celebrate to see a loco that is 'being thrashed'. Personally I think it's a horrible word. I have ridden behind many different locomotives when they have been worked hard. The most recent was the other day up Sapperton but that is something different from when a locomotive is thrashed. The consequences of thrashing a loco are sometimes dire, often evident through the setting of the reverser and sadly one or two locos on the Southern at the end of steam suffered in that way.

    So, in pursuit of the next best record climb of Ais Gill or Hemerdon do we expect too much of those who try so hard to please their customers? Should we accept a much higher price for our steam 'fix' so that loadings can remain at sensible levels and crews are not expected to push their charges to the limit? And how do TOCs ensure that essential knowledge about how to operate heritage steam locos properly is not lost at the expense of the condition of the locomotives that support the business?

    Over to you.
     
  2. Fred Kerr

    Fred Kerr Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    This has been under query since Blue Peter demolished its valve gear at Durham when the question of train crew competence gained wide publicity. This is of interest to me as my son is a volunteer who is happy to remain as a fireman - as he considers this THE most important footplate task. A driver can only work of he has steam to hand hence the fireman needs to ensure both a good supply and know how to keep it maintained when problems arise. That said many locomotive have specific peculiarities common to the class or to the one specific engine.

    I recall that when 6100 Royal Scot was guest at Llangollen, the owner's rep was quite specific about how it should be fired but still managed to stop through shortage of steam. On return to Llangollen the fireman concerned told the rep to "shut up and sit down" then proceeded to fire in a totally different way - with great success at maintaining steam supply. On return to Llangollen the fireman handed the shovel to the rep with the comment "THAT"s how to fire a Royal Scot - and how we crews did it on the Irish Mail !" Collapse of owners rep with ignominy !
     
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    Interesting anecdote. That said, I could give another with exactly the opposite outcome when a fireman for a TOC with heritage line experience mismanaged the fire leading to a stay problem back at depot. The current generation of firemen haven't 'Irish Mail experience' and heritage line experience is only an introduction to what needs to happen on the main line, in my view.

    But you are right about the skill of firing. I know an excellent driver and fireman on the main line who prefers to fire simply because it gives him far greater satisfaction to do it well when often the driving is constrained by pathing and other network restrictions.
     
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  4. Kylchap

    Kylchap Member

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    The difference between "working hard" and "being thrashed" is probably a fine line that is open to different interpretations. I wouldn't presume to comment on where it lies, but I would suggest three measures to help establish it.

    First, and in the context of this post the most important, what is it like for the crew? Are they struggling to get a loco to handle a specific load over a certain route? Do they feel there is much left in reserve? A skilled crew will know when a loco is being pushed too hard and should be listened to.

    Second, is the train managing to keep to its planned schedule with a bit in reserve to allow for the unexpected?

    Third, is loco reliability and maintenance needs remaining within the scope of what is expected?

    IF the crews and operators are happy that Galatea can handle 13, maybe the standards should be seen as a guide and not a limit.
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    If @Big Al will permit an anecdote …

    The other day I had a turn on No. 263 at the Bluebell. The duty was two trips to East Grinstead and return; load 139 tons (which is just below the load limit for the loco); because it was a cream tea service, it was non-stop Sheffield Park to Kingscote, then a stop there to cross the service train before continuing to East Grinstead. We had a driver (who happened to be an inspector, though it wasn’t a formal training turn or assessment); me as fireman and a cleaner as third man.

    I fired the first trip and the driver drove, which was without significant incident. When we got back to SP, we ran round, took water and then I handed over the shovel to the cleaner for the next trip. We had a much longer than normal break between trains (about an hour and a quarter I think), so the fire went quite cold. In addition, about a week before, we had taken a delivery of Welsh coal, for the first time in several years - prior to that we had had various hard coals for the last few years, the most recent of which had been very quick burning. The cleaner had reasonable experience, but I don’t think had used the Welsh coal much before, certainly not on a small loco.

    For the second trip, the cleaner fired, I drove and the driver observed. I’ve written a lot on this forum previously about firing the Chatham locos but not much about driving. Suffice to say, on our grades and with the train up to its load limit, it needs second valve - it will not keep time on first valve. It also really needs to run at above 140psi (red line 160, but ideally stay below 155) so you have a fairly narrow window to hit as a fireman. Below 140, the performance gets quite sluggish; below 115 or so you start to run the risk that the brakes drag on.

    So to the trip: the fireman built his fire up with some time to go as suggested, but going up Freshfield Bank in second valve, it was soon apparent all was not well. We got to the top but with pressure down to below 120psi and water about a third glass, the pressure not really recovering much as we coasted down to Tremains. Part of the problem was the long layover meaning the brick arch had gone cold; looking at the fire made me think part was due to too little coal down the front. When the line started to climb again after Tremains, I decided to keep the loco in first valve and accept the time loss, while giving a bit of coaching on where to fire. We knocked the injector off (probably had half a glass a Tremains, had we stopped to get a true reading) and the pressure recovered a bit. Mortgaging water for pressure helps a bit - within reason - as the higher the pressure, the less water you use. Keeping the injector running and suppressing the pressure risks getting into a vicious circle of increased water usage meaning more injector meaning lower pressure meaning more injector. I wanted to avoid that particular worry. By the outer distant we had 130psi and the pressure was definitely recovering without the injector, so I got the cleaner to turn it back on, and it held at 130 against the injector.

    At that point, I figured I had three choices. It was clear we were not in good shape for pressure and water with three miles of 1 in 75 to come straight out of Horsted Keynes. So I figured my options were (1) stop at HK and recover pressure and water - that would probably result in losing at least seven or eight minutes, but would give confidence of water level on the switchback summits to come (2) continue to plod up the line in first valve, which would also certainly result in several minutes loss or (3) give it the full beans second valve and hope the fire by now could take it. Round about Tremains I was seriously considering option 1; however, the way the pressure was holding against the injector, albeit at only 130psi and the water in sight below the top nut (so probably below half glass actual) as we approached HK gave me some confidence that things were getting better not worse. (No doubt as the fire approached white heat and the shape sorted out). So I carried on, and asked the inspector whether to go for second valve or not up to the tunnel. “Try it and see” was his advice. Therefore once clear of Leamland I went into second valve, probably about 45% at 130psi, injector running. At that point things livened up, the pressure came back above 140 and suddenly it was like being on a different engine; cut off back to 35% and we cleared the tunnel at about 140psi and maybe a third of a glass of water. From there it was no problem - a bit of attention to the fire and from Kingscote we ran up the final 1:65 / 1:75 / 1:55 climb at 150psi in second valve / 35%, with the fire jumping on the grate. Once the injector went on about half way up, pressure gradually fell back; I went into first valve before the summit so as to knock off speed and avoid braking on the knife-edge descent from the summit; we had 130psi and half a glass on the level run in to East Grinstead, pretty much text-book stuff on that loco. We stopped precisely on time.

    Why relate the anecdote? Really, for two reasons. The first is it shows the value of experience. In particular, left to my own devices I might have chosen to plod up to the tunnel just as we had done up from Tremains. The experience of the inspector was that by Horsted the fire was basically in good shape; all it needed was air, which second valve gave it by virtue of enhanced draught. Not only did we save time, we probably ultimately used less steam that way. Of course, on another day things might have gone the other way: what I learnt was firstly to try it, and secondly that sometimes working harder is more efficient.

    The other point is that for anyone not on the footplate, you’d have almost no appreciation of how that trip went. An experienced observer on the train may have picked up by the sound of the engine that we had a somewhat less than stellar time of it from Tremains up to Horsted, and things only really started going well from about Black Hut, a little south of the Tunnel. But I suspect you’d probably have needed to have your own experience of the engine to be able to tell that from the train. As far as 99% of people would know, we left on time and arrived on time, and what happened between was a mystery.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
  6. dublo6231

    dublo6231 Member

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    For all Footplate crew (as it used to be) it was a question of learn on the job as you progressed through the links - and some fireman certainly at the start would be directed by the driver especially if they hadn't been on a specific route before - though it didn't always work out that way!

    This then usually gave you enough knowledge about how to fire/drive the different classes within the depot on a given route - if you were a Fireman and as your relationship developed with your mate you'd maybe swap over and gain experience driving ...not so easy and certainly not allowed now though!
     
  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Now bear in mind my knowledge of practical steam locomotive operation could be counted with the fingers of one foot, but if these industry standard figures date back to LMS/BR days is it possible that they represent the capability of a Jubilee in the most run down condition likely to be encountered? Even so nearly 20% feels like an awful lot.
     
  8. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    My first observation is that Firemen often think theirs is the most important task, I'm sure I did. However other than a missed signal or shutting mistake, hardly any error by a Fireman will be catastrophic because the the Driver can deal with it. There's a hundred and one ways a Driver can get in deep trouble on a steam engine, either on a heritage or mainline railway. Many times you are quietly managing a problem that your mate is unaware of, or your mitigation.
    A thing you hear on heritage lines is 'There's more than one way to do the job'. Often there is, but I noticed when I did the Wolstyn experience, the crews handled the engines in much thd same way each time. I find, like Tom describes, SECR engines like the same treatment as each other. Also when you are close to the boiler power limit on a P tank say, there are lots of wrong ways to drive, usually hammering your water, so you choose the only one that doesn't. That is a touch of second valve and pulled up tight.
    There's also a presumption that the received wisdom is correct. I was owner's rep when Dukedoggydog went on its travels. I wish I'd had a pound each time we were told 'you fire it like a pannier' only to have a poor trip. The best Firemen kept an open mind and saw what worked for them. I kept my mouth shut about handling the engine for the most part and enjoyed the ride.
    A lot of the skill in the OP's question is hard to quantify. Dealing with a slip, soupy boiler or stopping smoothly and accurately. It's one of those things that you know it when you see it (I saw quite a bit as owner's rep), but it's really hard to tell from the train.
     
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  9. dublo6231

    dublo6231 Member

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    I don’t know for certain - but are the additional coaches this year anything to do with attempts at social distancing - or have they always been loaded thus?
     
  10. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    According to @iancawthorne site settlecarlislesteam, the last two runs are the first time in preservation a Jubilee has taken 13 unaided over the S and C. Plenty of class 7s and 8s have done it including a memorable run by 48151 in a howling gale one late October.

    To me that's the pleasure in reading the footplate memories genre such as Saltley Firing Days, LMS Fireman, Through the Links at Crewe, From Booking Boy to Bulleids etc. Skill is so multi-dimensional especially when the quality of the teamwork and the condition of the locos was very variable in those days.
     
    Last edited: Aug 23, 2021
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  11. iancawthorne

    iancawthorne Well-Known Member

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    Without doubt a first in preservation. Plenty with 12 on. Almost without doubt would never have happened on service trains 1967 and prior. An outside slim chance of a trial, but I haven't found any reference to anything to date.

    Interesting you mention Saltley Firing Days. I haven't read the book myself, though a few have highly recommended it - I believe it mentions the same loco - Galatea taking 14 unaided up the Lickey?
     
  12. Paul42

    Paul42 Part of the furniture

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  13. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    The limit for a Jubilee over the S&C was =11, that was the normal load on the 10.17 Leeds - Carlisle, the regular Jubilee working in their last summer of 67. Anything over that and the driver could ask for a pilot but some of the more enthusiastic ones didn’t so it’s quite possible that a 5X did tackle Ais Gill with 13 on.
    Was Galalbleone foolishly overloaded? It must be remembered that the loads and timings back in the day were based on an engine in average condition with a crew of average ability, today the loco will have had to pass a rigorous FTR exam and it will have an enthusiastic crew with a TI who can work as a second fireman if things get sticky.
     
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  14. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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  15. dublo6231

    dublo6231 Member

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    With regards to loco performance - I'm not sure that any of the drivers would consider that they have overworked or "thrashed" a specific locomotive.

    Some of the performances in recent times have been incredible but I think thats as much to do with the standards of maintenance of the locomotives and to a lesser extent the improved permanent way rather than anything else.

    Can of worms time and maybe moving away from the original statement about loading - but up to the point of failure on the "Ebor" it didn't appear (or at least to me anyway) that Tornado was being unduly pressed - being onboard the train - speed increased steadily up to the permitted maxima before disaster struck (it may of been different on the footplate however...)
    But the learnings from that run and the subsequent lengthy absence - will probably mean that I can't envisage the trust attempting a simlar hi-speed tour again - but never say never...

    I also think that steam locomotives are capable of achieving higher output/dbhp than expected (or maybe even designed) over a short period of time - when everything on the footplate and the locomotive itself is working to absolute efficiency - maybe this could be considered to be "thrashing" a loco but it's arguably rarely needed - I certainly concur with your point Alan that some of the loads that both Jubilee's have taken recently are maybe more than is ideal - especially given the routes that they have been on however.

    Alas it does rather indicate a shortage of available "larger" locomotives - but that would be to detract from the stirling efforts of the restoration teams/support crews/Drivers/Fireman et all - who have all worked so hard to ensure that their locomotive is available - so huge kudos and a great deal of thanks to all.

    Apologies if I've digressed slightly from the original post.
     
  16. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I remember when we had started to work the Duchess hard over the S&C, usually with load 14 (? about 500t) in about 1983. We arrived at Garsdale one afternoon with a very satisfied looking Carlisle driver - he had clearly enjoyed putting the old girl through her paces. I always fancied seeing what one of these would do, he said. But back in the day you would never even consider driving up hills like that. Even with a fit young fireman you were either at the start of a long shift and you did not want to tire him too early, or he was already exhausted towards the end of the shift. It was a very different world on the footplate back then.

    Another point to remember is that load limits were expressed in tons and not the number of coaches permitted. An LMS coach would weigh about 30 tons whereas a BR Mark 1 with Commonwealth bogies weighs about five ton more. So a 12 coach train of LMS coaches weighs maybe 360 tons as opposed to 420 tons of a similar number of Mark 1s - thats quite a difference.

    Peter
     
  17. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    I think that Tom very neatly shows the every day decision making that is part and parcel of footplate work. You and your mate are making judgement calls all the time because that is the nature of steam locomotive operation. Some judgement calls can be very tricky, although most come as second nature with experience. And as with any judgement call every now and again you will make a wrong call and things will go belly up on you, but hey, you somehow manage to get it right most of the time.

    Peter
     
  18. sgthompson

    sgthompson Part of the furniture Friend

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    I seem to remember you and Gordon Hodgson having to make a few decisions the day 45231 got into trouble with the Jacobite ECS shortly after Tebay Peter . A fantastic piece of work from you both to nurse the five up the 1 in 75 into the loop at Shap Summit.
     
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    On loads behind the drawbar, a train of 12 vehicles in 2021 is equivalent to a good 13 'in old money' so when you see the industry standard recommendation of, say 10, for a Class 5 or B1 you do have to remember that back in the time this would have been equivalent to 11. So any comparison of loco performance then compared with now does have to take that into account.

    Aside from the obvious better overall condition of steam on the main line now combined with the attitude of loco crews there is, of course, the 'plan to avoid problems' attitude of Network Rail in relation to steam. Every time a charter train is held for a late running service to go ahead when the considered view is that the charter could easily have been gone and away if allowed to go first, the answer from NR will always be "why should we take that risk". I recall that on an occasion when a problem with a water stop at Grantham southbound led to a missed path, it required an assurance from the loco crew to Control that they would be able to get the train to a particular point by a particular time before it was released.

    Where I think that 10A has got the steam model exactly right is with the Jacobite and the Shap/S&C circuit. Regular routes with regular locomotives and regular crews. Total knowledge (in depth) of the route/gradients and journeys that have massive general public appeal. To my mind these trips should carry the premium price to avoid unnecessarily long trains thereby minimising the need for fireman to be stretched.

    Having said all of the above, I remain of the view that succession planning for footplate crews remains a challenge and whilst there is clearly a resource on heritage lines, and in some cases a highly competent one as @Jamessquared has already outlined, the transition to main line carries with it far more than route knowledge and national safety standards in my view.
     
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  20. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    It certainly seems to me that 'regular repeat' trips is the way to go giving everyone involved, not only crews but other railway staff such as signallers the chance to develops skill and experience. Also of course it makes it more worthwhile to provide and retain facilities such as turning and servicing for steam. I might even add of course heritage diesel as well.
     

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