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FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Once more (as happens with big time restorations) we're firmly in Trigger's broom cupboard here!

    Thinking back to before WP was stripped down, there was talk of not jusr re-using the main frame, but of assessing the boiler shell's suitability for reconditioning. Whether, had the true condition of both been known to those FR members who voted on it, the decision to restore would've been made is now purely one of those "what ifs". Well, they did and for my part, I'm perfectly delighted with the outcome.

    In the case of LT, if there's a difference, it's that there's absolutely no room for doubt. It's completely and utterly kerry packered ..... no question. Unlike WP, even the wheels (AIUI, from the original James Spooner) are unfit for further service, as is the (lengthened) motion ... in fact just a few non-ferrous bits, plus (possibly) the cradle might be reusable. AFAIK it still features it's (decidedly sub-optimal) pre-preservation braking arrangement.

    As a cosmetically restored museum exhibit, calling it a "bitsa" does no justice to the folks who turned out such a fine result, but it is (and sorry to say so) no less accurate for that. As for restoration to steam, I can't help but recall @marshall5's comment, with reference to IMR No.16 Mannin, about jacking up the whistle and replacing everything beneath it .... and from what I can tell, LT is further gone than that!

    There's another thing mitigating against expending valuable resources to produce .... well, what exactly? Hardly a frontline loco, but perhaps, albeit a pretty one, a very expensive ornament? Where it is at present, LT both provides visitors to the NRM with a unique exhibit, demonstrating a fascinating design byway and affords the FfR some excellent valuable publicity at a very popular venue.

    Anyhow, on top of keeping the in-ticket fleet going, there's quite a queue ... There' JSII's build to complete (plus it's comissioning), Tal's overhaul to complete, Linda, EoM and Mountaineer (The Alco) to get going again .... that's without considering the WHR stud. Hold up a sec ..... I nearly forgot to mention there's slight issue of the ICE fleet to consider too
     
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  2. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Can't you say the same about WP and Palmerston? new build Mountaineer, Lilla, KS4415, Mary Ann, the boat, the Curly Roofed van, replica Ashbury, and so on and so forth.

    My point is not that LT should be restored or that it will be, but simply that to my mind it is no more beyond the realms of possibility than Welsh Pony was when it was this:

    [​IMG]

    and if in 2055 LT is running I wouldn't be surprised and I also wouldn't be surprised if it never turned a wheel in anger again.

    It is night and day
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2021
  3. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    Personally, I feel there is a need for a 'rebuild' Little Giant, with all the improvements that Prince has.
    In the near future, there will be an original style small England ( Mountaineer), a developed small England (Palmerston), an improved small England (Prince), and a rebuilt large England (Welsh Pony). all showing the way the FfR improved the basic design. A recreated Little Giant (no doubt enough parts exist to make it a rebuild!) with improvements would be the pinnacle of the design, showing what could have been accomplished with the England design.

    On the subject of Fairlies... Granted many may think that extra Fairlies are needed, and I wouldn't argue against them, but an original style Livingston Thompson (pre preservation style....) would also provide a comparison model against the all-singing designs of the new enlarged Fairlies
     
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  4. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    If the new build Mountaineer is successful, I could see someone saying why not a new build Little Wonder. Hence you can go from new build LW to a pre-preservation LT, to ME, to 1970s new build EoM, 1990s new build DLG to 2020s new build JS.

    As for Little Giant - some wheels, tenders, name plates and connecting rods exist - sounds like there is more than enough to call it a rebuild. So are you seeing the rebuilt Little Giant as an improved Large England ie superheated?
     
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  5. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    When is a rebuild not a rebuild? When it's a heavy overhaul? What follows are merely musings, as you may recall me waxing lyrical on Blodge's truly magnificent "Pickering" recreations for both the W&L and WHHR.

    With those locos mentioned, indeed you could (IMO). New builds though, locos and stock, I see very differently. OK, so some claim Tal is a 'rebuild' ...... Oink! Oink!, Flutter! Flutter! ...... In my books, if you need to do everything from the GA drawing on from scratch, it's a new build, end of!! It's all subjective anyway. For instance, in the case of the Single Fairlie, yes, it was (is) an historically appropriate (if not 100% identical) recreation of a long misising FfR concept and yes, as it turns out, it's proved a pretty useful loco to have around, but even with working Fairlies being the dictionary definition of a "USP", was it essential to commercial operations? Hell, no! We've even seen mention of a Little Wonder replica (though not from me). If enough folk want to chuck enough money at any given project, the sky's the limit.

    Similarly, recreated heritage stock, Ashbury and the Porthole Bug Box can (and in current atypical conditions, do) perform a useful revenue function and are most certainly appropriate, but I honestly doubt anyone saying "OK, we need some additional accommodation, suitable for families to travel, for several hours in each direction" would consider either over a decent modern design .... and though some would, I'm NOT one who'd care to spend the duration of a full-line WHR journey in either!

    Kit with zero practical revenue potential, be it a "Curly" (or any other) van, or a rake of the various flavours of slate waggons, definitely comes under the 'nice to have' category. Historically appropriate, great to see, but scarcely essential to efficient railway operations. There's even quite a bit of mileage in claiming it's a the best way to keep the coach/waggon builder's skills alive, thereby aiding all future work to keep historic vehicles running, but the bottom line question here surely remains "what value ambience?".

    With LT, should some raving lunatic gracious benefactor show up with five million quid, say "Here you go, rebuild LT and keep the change", I'd be more surprised were they told to sod off keep their money, than by the sight, a year or two later, of LT emerging from Blodge under it's own steam (and maybe even Princess a year later?). If there's one thing I've learned over six-plus decades, it's never to say never ..... well, almost never. :)
     
  6. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    To my mind it is very much stretching a point to call Taliesin a rebuild when supposedly it isn't even to the same scale as the original!
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    If it has the same identity in the capital stock it is a “renewal” :)

    Tom
     
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  8. MuzTrem

    MuzTrem Member

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    AIUI this has already happened. Generous benefactor came forward in the late 1980s with a proposal to restore LT. Having realised - as others have pointed out - that this would be a futile exercise because you'd basically just end up starting from scratch, said donor was persauded to fund the cosmetic resotration of Merddin Emrys instead. A much better use of the money, I would argue, since Merddin had already been "rebuilt" to the point where there was little of the original engine left, whereas LT was still comprised mostly of historic pre-preservation era material. By "restoring" LT all you would achieve is to throw most of that material on the scrapheap, and then build a replica. So why not just build a replica and leave the historic material on display in the NRM, where it does a good job of promoting the railway, and is potentially valuable to future historians wishing to study pre-preservation-era construction/maintenance techniques?

    For goodness sake, leave it alone! :rolleyes:
     
  9. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Personally, I agree. Just for the record, ditto my glib comment about Princess! :)
     
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  10. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Preservation is about education, not just keeping everything in the original packaging. We keep "original" material not just because it's old but because it can tell us something we don't know, or add colour to a story we do. Sometimes though it is just a pile of rusty crap and we should just throw it away.

    There are still plenty of old bits on Welsh Pony, certainly a lot more than there are on Palmerston. All the parts taken off are safely under cover. Some of them will make fantastic museum exhibits. Not polished or painted but displayed exactly how they were withdrawn. The old boiler is far more interesting out of the engine than it was in it. It would have been a travesty to hack it about to put it in service too. So sometimes you gain something by a project like that and sometimes you don't. Finding the balance is the tricky part.

    Tim
     
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  11. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A timely reminder that the remit of a heritage line goes well beyond shiny locos and timetabled services. Cheers, Tim. :)

    With known long standing space constraints firmly in mind, has the FfR now identified a suitable location (or locations) for displaying a proportion of the very many artifacts which have been accumulated over the years?
     
  12. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    I believe that the 'Old Engine Shed' at Boston Lodge is going to be part museum/part interpretation centre see:https://nlhfproject.festrail.co.uk/project-overview/
    Personally I think that Princess and LT would look good in there, sort of recreating how the shed must have looked when the doors were first re-opened in 1954.
    Ray.
     
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  13. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Mmmm ..... Princess certainly, but doesn't LT serve both the FfR and NRM better in York? Honestly, there'll be people looking to raid MOSI exhibits next!! ;)

    Such a facility would certainly 'up' the usefulness of Boston Lodge Halt. Can't help wondering if a shuttle twixt there and Harbour (maybe even a few linking up with the neighbours at Pen-y-Mount) might produce sufficient support to be viable?
     
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  14. Paul Grant

    Paul Grant Well-Known Member

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    The Ffestiniog really has some of the slickest media presence out there. Consistently released, professionally produced and stuffed with content. Also backed up by a GM who is on the ground literally and metaphorically.
     
  15. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    Could E of M replace LT at the NRM whilst plans are made and finances raised for its eventual overhaul? It would still advertise theFfR but, being the first full-size preservation era new-build, also tell another story. Just a thought.
    Ray.
     
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  16. 61624

    61624 Part of the furniture

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    That's accountancy thinking, though, which has very little relevance to reality!
     
  17. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Talking about MOSI - Does anyone remember the proposal to section LT? There is an idea I am happy that went nowhere. I am not sure how serious the idea was on whether the proposer was one of those people who would write letters in green crayon.

    There was a huge amount of information in there. I really liked the tone - all the praise for the staff was really good to hear. Good to hear the positive financial news as well as the upcoming infrastructure work this winter.
     
  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    One for the membership, methinks. For some peculiar reason, my mind is turning to the 1/2 stabilised, 1/2 restored original Metropolitan carriage at Corris .... can't think why, as I don't think it's displayed with any bogies (restored or otherwise)!

    In any more representative year, the full-line FfR service needs two double engines, one available spare preferred. With a 10 year overhaul cycle knocking a loco out for a year, minimim, basic maths suggest a 3 double loco fleet simply doesn't guarantee such provision for - best case - 3 out of every 10 years. A long winded way of saying I suspect four would be preferable! Never mind totalling what's left of the last true 'Spooner Fairlie', even bringing EoM back to full health ain't going to be cheap. That's why it was withdrawn!

    Historically, the solution has been to pair 'the Ladies', but though they can still keep up, they're not getting any younger and with the (even older) 'Englands', there's a 'Max Speed 15mph' (noted in Festipedia), so even the double-heading dictated by a full service train can't be expected to keep to the regular BF timetable. That leaves Tal and Lyd. Even with both available, that's one more footplate crew than a double engine needs and often necessitates taking folks off other work at Blodge, which isn't usually an insurmountable problem providing a train load of gricers, grannies, or gricing grannies haven't previously booked a special from BF!

    Then there's WHR provision to add into the mix. Look what we've had in the past week. The double locos have been seconded onto Glaslyn Adventurer, due to a Garratt throwing a fit of the sulks. Luckily, with the restricted service, it's not been as critical an issue as it would be normally.

    Cards on the table time. I like Garratts. They're very impressive, workmanlike machines, but even I can't ignore received wisdom from SA, which is that when dieselisation meant the NG15 'Kalaharis' were transferred from Namibia, they proved nearly as powerful as the Garratts, plus proving more reliable in service. Well, we'll just have to wait for No.134's debut to see if that holds true in WHR service, but (so long as the K-H trucks behave), surely they'll be simpler to maintain. Time will tell, eh?
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2021
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  19. Hirn

    Hirn Member

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    I have long felt that the Khalahari might compare pretty well to the Garratts and would be very curious to see how 134 might perform. The size of the gate compares as 17 square feet to 19 which is smaller but not hugely so but though the Garrett has more adhesive weight with one regulator and two quite separate engines each end it cannot be so easy to control slipping - nor can the different lengths of the steam pipes to the cylinders at either end help. In practice with or without wet Welsh weather you would drive shutting and opening the regulator according to which end slipped first ie not making most of the adhesion from the other end which was keeping its feet. (A double Fairlie - elegantly - is much more symmetrical and has separate regulators for each bogie which can be readily opened separately or together and advantage is taken of this.)
    The point about easier maintenance is a good one which I hadn’t thought of: no flexible joints steam tight or not either end of the boiler cradle, half the number of cylinders and everything associated with them, two thirds the number of driving
    axle boxes……..
     
  20. pgbffest

    pgbffest New Member

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    Well, the 15mph limit is news to me! Generally, if you lump a seven carr rake of all modern corridor stock behind them, then you tend to sit around 15mph to ensure that you don't run out of go! However, there's no speed limit attached to it.

    Generally, we can cope with two weeks worth of double-heading before we run out of volunteers and need to resort to paid staff. There's a grand selection of local staff who can appear out the woodwork to assist. The works staff are generally the last port of call (if you have time) for running the service - using those in a computerised role tend to be the first ones as they can work anywhere.
     

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