If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Edward Thompson: Wartime C.M.E. Discussion

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by S.A.C. Martin, May 2, 2012.

  1. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2012
    Messages:
    5,608
    Likes Received:
    3,510
    I'd suggest that there was/is simply a lot more emotional investment in Gresley than Bulleid or any other contemporary loco engineer. He was a hero figure in a way Bulleid wasn't.

    You know more than I do about this, but was the rebuilding of the MNs and WCs that controversial? In the climate of the mid 50s and the Modernisation Plan, the BTC must have judged that the immediate term imperative was to improve availability so as to get through the next ten years. It must have been a solid case otherwise in the context of the time, it wouldn't have happened.
     
    jnc likes this.
  2. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think Bulleid falls at the innate conservatism (small-c) with railway enthusiast - the pacifics don't "look like proper steam engines", until the heroics in the late 60s, were they that noted? Gresley built the Fastest Steam Engine (perceived). Also, I suspect the LNER's publicity machine flogged them harder than anyone else.
    Which would be on more small boys' bedroom walls?

    Personally, I find it interesting how many workaday engines Gresley built, from later variant J6s all the way to V2s, which gets forgotten behind the A4s and A3s.

    Sellar and Yateman's 1066 and all that description of Cavaliers (wrong but romantic) and Roundheads (right but repulsive) taps into the psyche, Gresley is painted as the artiste languidly penning A3s and A4s, and Thompson is a embittered journeyman stamping out B1s through gritted teeth
     
    ragl, Miff and jnc like this.
  3. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Better not say that to fans of Bulleid's "Flat Tops," of whom there are many.
     
  4. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    No we're not - and that's the point, we're trying to put into perspective the depth of his and Thompson's work.

    Gresley's V2 is likely his best design - not because of speed records or similar, but because they were built in large numbers, ultimately were very reliable and could do a range of jobs including filling in for the Pacifics. Equally - one could cogently argue the LNER was nothing without the Gresley O2s either.

    We just need to get some perspective on the actual value to the company. What was the actual value and do we have the evidence to show this?

    For the record, I have done this in the book I have written. The Pacific comparisons are eye openers - as are the comparisons to the Mikados. The best Pacifics in 1945 and 1946 were Thane of Fife and Great Northern by way of mileage and availability, by a significant margin. From rebuilding into a Pacific, Thane of Fife was outperforming the original P2s with more than double the mileage and nearly double the availability.

    B1 vs V2 isn't the best example - purely on strength of numbers, there simply weren't enough B1s by the end of my data set (1946) to be a fair comparison to the V2s. The V2s stand up pretty well on their own mind.

    K1 versus K4 - the better comparison (in my opinion) is K4 to K2 and K3 or K5. K4 in the war years had poor availability and mileages, with the K1 (later K1/1) showing significant improvements over its first two years of service.

    The O1 to O2 is more comparable, given the numbers, but the eye openers are the availability for older 2 cylinder types like the O4s.

    The L1 to V3 is skewed by virtue of the fact the data set only goes 1942-1946 and the L1 prototype was the sole example for several years (so we don't have the data for when the production locos came into service...yet. I am looking at some source material that may allow us to recreate that data).

    The current data set can be interpreted a number of ways and the beauty of it is that we have every single LNER class' statistics for a five year period. It's a huge data set and very much opens the door for more informed debate on the real issue - what locomotives returned good investment in terms of performance for the company.

    The thing for me is that if we expecting the mileages to be exaggerated, or worse than expected, then you'd likely see a level of discrepancy between the Engine Record Cards mileages compared to that recorded in the Use of Engine Power Document (availability statistics) - and there isn't. If anything, the statistics we have from those sources undermine the core arguments made that such under/over-reporting was in any way widespread. I would suggest that it was exceptional and not regular.

    That's a really good idea - thank you for that. Yes, it makes sense. We can do this quite well with the Thompson Pacifics - albeit accounting for the fact that the A2/1s used V2 boilers (biggest pool of boilers of the Thompson Pacifics in theory!) whereas the A2/3s were the largest class with access to at least three boiler types. The A2/2s later fell into line with the A2/3s. Great Northern used an A4 boiler type and that was never an issue either.
     
    jnc likes this.
  5. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I like 'em. But I wasn't around in 1956. At which stage the spotter at the end of the platform was probably bemoaning the passing of S15s and T9s etc. At the end of steam, they grow hugely in popularity as they are the last remaining stars.
     
  6. Bikermike

    Bikermike Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 11, 2020
    Messages:
    1,442
    Likes Received:
    1,595
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Thameslink territory
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You might not be, but the wider "we" on this thread might be. When people are comparing A4s to B1s, it's a dangerous equivalence

    Edit - missing "not"...
    Sorry, another question
    "The O1 to O2 is more comparable, given the numbers, but the eye openers are the availability for older 2 cylinder types like the O4s."
    One assume it's that O4s had much higher availability - but assumption is the mother of all foul-ups...
     
  7. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But there was a demand for long distance travel that an N7 on two quint-arts couldn't meet. And don't forget, in the 30s air transport was becoming possible for the well heeled. Whilst the railways would not be able to compete on outright speed, not that passenger aircraft of the era were that much faster than an express train, the railways could certainly offer higher levels of comfort and standards of on board service - especially in first class. I doubt the Big Four ran their expresses just for fun.
     
    Bluenosejohn likes this.
  8. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    We jest, but there's a number of times in the book I've written where I quote a statement from a specific railway author, and then provide evidence showing what he's said simply wasn't true...Dick Hardy isn't that person, for clarity: but there are a few authors who have reported on certain things which can be shown very easily to be untrue.
     
    MellishR likes this.
  9. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    According to books I've read, the service was profitable. Very popular with northern businessmen who were prepared to pay well for the luxury and on board service.
     
  10. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But it attracts customers to the railway who do help pay the bills. Today it would be television advertising that drives passenger figures. Back then it was different and don't forget, speed has always sold where the railways are concerned. If it didn't, we'd all be trundling along behind the man with the red flag.
     
  11. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,064
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think you are correct over Gresley/Thompson v Bulleid/Jarvis so I won't take this thread too far sideways on that one.

    As for Gresley/Thompson I can see completely that Gresley (and the LNER publicity behind him and his express locomotives in particular), put the man at the forefront of public thinking. And whether Southern folk like it or not, 'The Flying Scotsman' (train, but also loco) had rather more than just an edge on 'The Atlantic Coast Express' as a brand. As for the rebuilding you mention, Thompson didn't get into this to the degree that occurred with the Bulleids but there were a few common themes - efficiency, ease of maintenance etc - all of which have been rehearsed already.

    What bemuses me is the occasional "How dare he touch the perfection that was Gresley" comment. On the whole this wasn't said of Jarvis but it was of Thompson when although the action taken may have been different, the intended outcomes were probably similar.

    Why can't people see that, or am I wrong?
     
    ragl, jnc and S.A.C. Martin like this.
  12. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Doesn't matter as long as the privileged were prepared to pay a premium price for the service.
     
  13. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Like the electrification to Exeter? :rolleyes: Oh sorry, we're still waiting for that.
     
  14. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It's not a "dangerous equivalence" at all. it's only dangerous if you or anyone else feels personally slighted by the suggestion.

    Railways are complicated setups and locomotives are part of that complicated setup. The suggestion that a Thompson B1 likely provided a better return on investment than an A4 is not a dangerous question. It takes nothing away from the brilliance of the A4 design nor does it elevate the B1 above where it should be. It reduces them down to the basic fact that they are machines, which the LNER invested in, and we can analyse their work and stats and then make a conclusion as to their relative value to the company.

    For the record - the A4s were not horrendous performers during WW2 and seemed to fare better than most of the conjugated classes throughout. So we're not here trying to condemn them, we're just trying to have perspective.

    It does depend on the area of the LNER you are looking at too, but generally the best performing locomotives were - also - the newest built. So the Stanier O6s/8Fs and the Austerity 2-8-0s had best availability and mileages over that period. In fact, if we want to be fair here, those two classes in particular really showed up the older LNER classes of that wheel arrangement (Gresley, Thompson, Robinson et al!).
     
    jnc likes this.
  15. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Silver Jubilee ran from September 1935 to September 1939. Four years.
    The Coronation ran from July 1937 to September 1939. Just over two years.

    They ran concurrently for just over two years.

    How many times a day/week did they run? How many passengers on board?

    We talk about these trains with hallowed tones - and they were magnificent engineering creations, to be sure. But the return on investment wasn't to be found in running these trains, but in whether you can quantify their work within the company. I would hazard a guess that the vehicles within those sets actually did more for the LNER, and then BR, when they had their innards changed and rearranged with more seating, than they did as built. If you compare them to the other services running - suburban, freight, etc - how much did they really provide to the company? There's no doubting that the PR might have had some quantifiable effect - but how can we show that statistically? I think it's a debate to be had, for sure.

    Still, beautiful trains, and they and showed a way forward in so many ways with articulation, streamlining, air conditioning, etc.
     
  16. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If it hadn't been for the Austrian Corporal, they would have run for much longer. For how much longer we will sadly never know.
     
    Johnb likes this.
  17. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2010
    Messages:
    5,591
    Likes Received:
    9,325
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Asset Engineer (Signalling), MNLPS Treasurer
    Location:
    London
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Yes, that is true. But we would be asking the same questions still. Did they provide a good return for investment?
     
  18. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Sep 8, 2005
    Messages:
    4,052
    Likes Received:
    4,665
    Occupation:
    Once computers, now part time writer I suppose.
    Location:
    SE England
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    It would be very disappointing if that wasn't the case. The state of the art was advancing and detail engineering, bearing design, lubrication, all the invisible things were getting better.
    That's why, for example, the GWR replaced their turn of the century small tank engines with superficially similar ones. The new ones would run much greater mileages between overhauls. The casual observer criticises them as being no advance, but the workshop records would tell a different story.
    So if any new design wasn't producing better figures than a ten or twenty year old one then something had gone wrong.
     
    Kje7812, MellishR, jnc and 3 others like this.
  19. Spamcan81

    Spamcan81 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    35,121
    Likes Received:
    20,772
    Occupation:
    Training moles
    Location:
    The back of beyond
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    But there would have been a longer period of revenue streams to be studied for an opinion to be formed. You could argue that the streamliners introduced in 1937 didn't provide a return on investment but they were not introduced with withdrawal after just two years in service so any discussion is rather moot on that point.
     
    MellishR, RalphW and Bluenosejohn like this.
  20. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2010
    Messages:
    851
    Likes Received:
    908
    Occupation:
    Design Engineer
    Location:
    Shropshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    You seem to have entirely missed the point I was trying to make, which was to balance the revenue accrued from a commuter train during a day's operation, against that of a long distance express. I'm not trying to suggest that there wasn't a need for long-distance passenger services, quite the opposite in fact. The railway companies operated services, passenger, parcels and freight, whenever and wherever there was a market to satisfy. They were probably less fixated with long distance passenger services than railway enthusiasts.

    Andy
     
    Kje7812, 69530, MellishR and 5 others like this.

Share This Page