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Driver Competencies

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by GWR4707, Mar 10, 2021.

  1. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    It's worth mentioning that with DBC, as far as I can recall, most footplate staff are both driver and fireman qualified to the point where on a Surrey Hills they 'change sides' at the water stop. And then there is the Traction Inspector who is a former driver. I recall that in recent times there has also been an additional footplate person on some West Coast operations as well. So in general, it seems that to varying degrees main line TOCs do seem aware of the need not to have to rely on one 'expert' in a particular skill.
     
  2. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    In terms of steam operation yes, but all other trains will be running with just the booked driver in normal circumstances. Also another person could only take over if qualified on route and traction.
     
  3. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    Tom I can see your logic here, my question was more from a competency angle. I can see the logic in a fireman knowing how to stop a train in an emergency.

    I'm just interested how the bluebell goes about knowing you can do this and assuring itself of this on a regular basis, and if any guidance is issued on when or if it should be used?
     
  4. Cosmo Bonsor

    Cosmo Bonsor Member

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    Tom describes ‘Drive and fire’ accurately. Apart from the practical aspect in that it may be the best way out of a bad situation, I believe it is one of the tools the Inspector uses to see what a candidate does under pressure. It involves keeping many tasks under control simultaneously , which is what a Driver does all the time anyway.

    Ultimately an Inspector has to come up with an answer to the question ‘Can I trust this person to always to the right (enough) thing from now on?’. Thad's a tough one. By the time a candidate gets a Firing or Driving test they know how to do the job but the Inspector still has to answer The Question.

    One of our long departed Inspectors would really put the psychological pressure on the candidate, these are the stuff of legend. Not my preference but it was a way of finding any character flaws.

    Sometimes there is loads of stuff happening all at once, late running, signal hold ups, slow platform work, a soupy engine and so on, but the Driver has to keep a clear head.

    Because it’s down to you.
    Right now, right here.
    With this engine, it’s you.
    You are the last line of defence.
    It’s you.
    Doesn’t matter what else is going on, it’s you.
    Someone else has blundered? It’s still you.
    Train full of experts?
    It’s you.
    Keyboard Drivers on Nat Pres?
    It’s you.

    It’s always you.
     
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  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    [​IMG]
     
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  6. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I haven't had to drive and fire since, though I have been observed (and assessed) driving since as part of our training programme, so I guess there is a formal record of the ongoing driving competence of most firemen.

    As for when it should be used: there is nothing I know written. I think it would be hard to be prescriptive - to me it comes down to a judgement on what is the quickest and safest way to get help, which must depend on where you are on the line, particularly with regards signal post telephones, road crossings etc. Also on what has incapacitated your driver. My own feeling is that once you are past the section signal, in most cases getting to the next station is probably quicker than stopping and calling assistance (even with a mobile phone), given the logistics of an emergency crew reaching a train on a possibly isolated bit of line. There are very few places on the line where you cross, or are close, to a road apart from at stations - only really three I can think of.

    Tom
     
  7. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Purely out of curiosity, what was the outcome for your driver, if one may ask?

    Noel
     
  8. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    Thanks for explaining, that answers my question very well :)
     
  9. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Miraculous recovery once safely arrived at the next station ...

    Tom
     
  10. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    Thanks is for the replies. Cosmo is correct, when driver training I was told "no-one gets hurt til the regulator gets opened".

    Do other railways have the same system?
     
  11. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Oh, right, I'd forgotten your earlier post. So it wasn't a real emergency then. I wonder if anyone's had a real one like this?

    (BTW, I recall, from many decades ago, Av Week reprinting the transcript of a case where the pilot of a small plane keeled over in flight. Somehow the passenger managed to get in touch with the tower, and they talked the passenger down. IIRC, some damage but no injuries, in the landing. IIRC, the pilot didn't make it.)

    Noel
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I haven’t had to do it for real, but I’ve heard of at least one instance of the opposite situation (fireman incapacitated and driver having to get to the next station driving and firing).

    Most things simulated or examined are I think routed in reality, some more frequent than others. I’ve certainly had a signal go back on me at the last moment while driving; I’ve also once had to throw a fire out in earnest. Never had to protect a train failed in section, but the viva voce scenario I had in my rules test about a train failure in section with very few staff available was based on an incident with an evening Golden Arrow about twenty years ago.

    Tom
     
  13. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    If we had a similar incident on the NYMR the first course of action would be to stop, summon the guard (crews have radios) and see if there was any medically qualified person on the train. (less likely on an ECS, I know!) NYMR trains can easily be 20 minutes from the nearest public road. Just leaving him/her collapsed on the footplate is unlikely to be the best move. A decision would then be made as to what course of action to take. It is quite probable that there would be another suitable person on the train with sufficient knowledge to enable the train to continue, if required. Firemen do have some knowledge of controlling a train, if necessary, as it is part of their practical footplate training. If it was an ECS, the guard would ride on the footplate and work to the instructions of the remaining footplate crew member. If no phone signal it would be a question of stopping at a lineside emergency phone and summoning assistance by the best practical route.
     
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  14. peckett

    peckett Member

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    Yes your correct ,in ten years of loco footplate years working 7 days a week(mostly ) ,with four locos in steam, I only know of one all told going. That happened to me. It was when I was spare driver . A driver who was noted for not liking any one else driving his loco, was on holiday for one week .It was on a Monday morning when it happened ,I had only gone a mile or so light engine when bang ,the gauge glass broke on the left hand side ,so I went back on shed .The valves /cocks wouldn't shut of tight on the gauge glass. I managed to replace the glass ,with scalding water dripping ,but it wouldn't go steam tight . So I thought dam this I 'll cover it with a waterproof coat That remained in position the rest of the week ,with a small pool of water on the cab floor forming ,nothing to serious though'. N production time was lost .At the weekend when the loco wasn't in steam ,I replaced the glass and rubber washers again ,this time with success ,only to find the cocks were blocked, that un blocking job was done with a skewer .A 15 min job or so.
    A few minutes later the loco's regular driver appeared ,he lived nearby .I said to him,Gauge glass blocked up with Scale, his reply was ,What can you expect it was shut off all week ,and shot off a bit smartish. I ' m convinced that he tampered with the gauge glass ,maybe snitching it a bit just before he went on holiday, maybe with a hack saw blade. I 'm sure he was aware of the cocks not being steam tight in the closed position ,and he also thought due to this, the loco' would be taken out of steam for the rest of day to be repaired.
     
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  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I received for my birthday a copy of "Lectures on the Locomotive" by Dugald Drummond, and a couple of lines leapt out from the introduction, under instructions to drivers. (The following probably best rendered in a pronounced Scottish brogue - my emphasis):

    (On diagnosing faults):

    "Information on this subject will be given by diagrams showing the positions an engine should stand to test the valves and pistons properly, and do away with the risk of giving the running shed fitter the opportunity of using strong language."
    (On running duties):

    "The first duty is to be acquainted with the running of the trains you are booked for, and no longer depend on receiving this information from guards, who, I am informed, often lead drivers astray."
    Amused me, anyway!

    Tom
     
  16. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    About the only information I want from a guard is 'right away'. What more do I need, anyway? Go when told and stop when we get to the next signal or station. I can count the coaches on the first curve. They'd be redundant if we could think of another way to get that right away.;)
     
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  17. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    A humble trainee guard suggests info on the results of the brake test might be handy — unless footplate crew are going to take on that duty too! :)
     
  18. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Mr Drummond had something to say on that matter as well:

    “Another source of danger (which drivers have found to their cost) is accepting the signals given by guards at stations.”
    The context of that latter remark is that receiving the right away from a guard does not absolve the driver of the responsibility of checking that the road is set:

    “I cannot too strongly urge you to consider the guard’s signal when working passenger trains as only meaning that the duties at the station with the train are completed. At the same time, I am strongly of opinion the guard should be held responsible with the driver that the fixed signals are clear before he gives the ‘all right’ signal to the driver to depart. If the designation ‘guard of the train’ means anything, it must mean he is equally responsible with the driver for its safety.”
    It is interesting, given the wider railway context of the era (late Victorian / early Edwardian) that the triple requirement of “lock, block and brake” was still fairly new, and many old hands were probably still of the mindset that the driver was paramount in the safety of the train, rather than the systemic relationship between driver, guard and signalman. I wonder whether in choosing his words, Drummond was, consciously or not, replaying deep discussions about the development of the rules during his career.

    Tom
     
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  19. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Typical of those buggers at the front end! They think they know everything, but try counting fifty odd unfitted wagons with a raft of vans on the next road on the inside of the curve. If we guards didn't tell them, they wouldn't know where to start braking, or how hard to put the brake in.

    They're just jealous: it was we guards who were in charge of the train and they just don't like it!


    Alright, when I was a guard at Edge Hill, there was always banter - good natured - between drivers and guards. I remember one day when ASLEF had called a 24-hour strike. We weren't out, of course, so had a day sitting in the mess room. Then we all heard the sound of clashing buffers; someone was shunting wagons around. We investigated and found the 08 was being driven by a guard. Not just any guard, but the NUR shop steward! I was looking forward to the fisticuffs which were inevitable the following day but was bitterly disappointed. "Trying to go up in the world, are you?" asked one driver as they shared a cup of tea.
     
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  20. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I understand that eventually (1970's) the rule book was changed so the guard had to check the signal was clear before giving the 'right away' after a 'ding ding and away' accident
     

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