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Photo Charters and Photography on Heritage Railways

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by I. Cooper, Mar 4, 2021.

  1. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    It's been stated they will no longer host photo charters, ie. a private hire of the line for photographic purposes where 'untrained' people not working for the railway set themselves up in multiple camera positions unconstrained by normal public access limits whilst under the supervision of a railway representative, before a train runs back and forth on demand according to the wishes of those who've hired the railway for the event.

    So where's the difference with a TV/Film production company wishing to privately hire the use of the line for photographic purposes where a large crew of people who do not work for the railway set themselves up in multiple camera positions unconstrained by normal public access limits, before a train runs back and forth on demand according to the wishes of those who've hired the railway for the event?

    If the railway won't entertain photographic charter bookings from "A.N. Historic Photo Recreations", then presumably they'll also tell Warner Bros. that they can't charter the railway for their photographic purposes either - because the railway no longer hosts such bookings of the railway.
     
  2. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    The SVR will presumably look at the cost/benefit ratio of each proposal, and come to a decision based on what is best for the railway.
     
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  3. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    For me, lineside photography at a gala is not a 'controlled environment' a film production is, everything is micro managed, everyone knows where everyone is, everything is predetermined. Also the money that the railway would earn from 'Warner Brothers' etc would be significant and I'd imagine a lump sum would be payed to their insurers to allow for such filming. If I remember correctly the GCR ended their lineside photography passes due to the added high yearly premiums of allowing non competent members of the public on the line without any medicals or training. We've had a good run, I suspect the NYMR will be next to follow suit.
     
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  4. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    That is what I would hope/assume - but that would also mean there wouldn't be a blanket ban on photographic charter business. It may mean the costs the railway charges to make it worth their while hosting the booking increases, and that may in turn mean it becomes economically un-viable for smaller events, but that isn't what's being reported - which is a blanket ban on all photo charter bookings, which by definition should also exclude bookings from the Film/TV industry, because in essence there's no difference between the two (other than a film booking will potentially involve a lot more hassle for the railway).
     
  5. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Part of the furniture

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    I sincerely doubt there is a ban on the film/tv industry using the railway.
    Also, has anything official been announced by the railway w.r.t. photo charters? I don't think I've seen anything.
     
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  6. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    My point wasn't concerning lineside photography passes, more the reported situation where the railway will no longer host photographic charters - where the line is privately hired by the charter organiser who is able to micro manage what happens, the train waits until the light is right and starts and stops at the organiser's command. Flower pots and modern signs might get pushed out of sight on platforms, and you have a load of people brought to the railway by the event organiser who have no 'lineside training' or 'medical certificate', but are still able to set up with cameras in lineside positions under the supervision of a railway representative.

    If the railway has decided it is not in a position to entertain such booking requests then it shouldn't matter who it is trying to hire the railway for photographic purposes. One might have hoped rather than announcing blanket bans they would have instead announced that requests will be considered individually based upon their specific requirements and priced accordingly.

    Personally I don't have a lineside pass, and have only attended one photo charter on the SVR donkey's years ago - so their current decision is set to have little impact on me, but if they are going take the business decision not to hire out the railway for photography - so don't bother asking - then they presumably are applying that decision universally and will in future turn down potentially lucrative Film/TV charter work as well, because such photographic charter bookings are "banned".
     
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  7. Gladiator 5076

    Gladiator 5076 Part of the furniture

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    Whilst I can understand the logic of your argument, it will rightly all come down to money. Film companies will pay much more money than 30 or 40 photographers so it may well be worth extra effort in safety briefings staff used for control etc. Plus from what I see most film companies either want footage at stations or inside coaches.
    At the end it will all (rightly) be down to money.
    Maybe not too relevant but you would not get NR to agree to a photo charter at Kings Cross. However WB filmed parts of Harry Potter there.
     
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  8. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

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    I can’t remember who it was who mentioned this and the railway concerned but I recall a story on here about 2 photographers standing in the four foot right behind the last item of rolling stock to check their photos because it was the only place that ‘they could see out of the sunlight’
    To me that hardly seems being ‘micro managed by a tour organiser’.
    If you haven’t a lineside pass and only attended one charter ‘donkeys years ago’ why are you so concerned? I still haven’t seen anything official yet saying charters are ‘banned’
     
  9. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    If as you say, the current decision has little impact on you, I fail to understand why you are stirring the pot. A commercial decision has been made by the SVR management to suspend photo charters. Should, in the fullness of time, a good case be made for their resumption, then I am sure that will be duly considered against any safety, operational and financial constraints appertaining when any decision is made. It might surprise you to know, that not all external filming contracts are accepted. These too need to pass cost/benefit test. To say that a suspension of photo charters should also mean the exclusion of filming or TV contracts is nonsensical.
     
  10. I. Cooper

    I. Cooper Member

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    I dare say a large proportion of the people who pass comment on this (and other) forums do so about matters that have little to no direct impact on themselves. If people only posted comments upon matters that directly affected themselves and otherwise 'minded their own business' there'd be a lot less traffic on the forum.

    I've no doubt the SVR, along with any other businesses, will have in the past considered requests from production companies and sometimes declined to get involved. I'm sure they have also received requests from others looking to hire the railway for specific functions and declined those approaches as well. At the moment we have some people saying the SVR has annouced it will no longer entertain photographic chartering, others are saying they haven't seen it officially announced anywhere. Based on what has been stated by others on the forum, I simply suggest if the railway is being absolute on banning such hiring of its facilities, then it will presumably be applying that policy across the board. If it depends how much budget you have available when you approach the railway with your proposal, then it would suggest they aren't "banning" charter work, simply putting their prices up and/or altering their requirements and acceptance criteria - which is rather different to what's been suggested so far.
     
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  11. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    with the best will in the world that isn't the wisest of questions

    As a photo charter organiser I have the confirmation together with the rationale why.It isn't a ban,no one has done anything wrong but it is a decision to no longer facilitate the photo charters I (and others run) . Beyond that the note is commercially sensitive so It isn't going in the public domain so the matter is therefore closed
     
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  12. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Andy ,just to clarify it is not a suspension, nor is it a ban
     
  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Do you see this as inevitably spreading to other railways in the same way the general lineside passes have slowly been withdrawn, or is this different?
     
  14. Andy Williams

    Andy Williams Member

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    If neither a suspension or a ban, then it should presumably be described as a moratorium:)
     
  15. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    Possibly
     
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  16. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    It’s either a suspension or a ban, there is no other possibility. I have been told the reason for it and fail to see how it can be commercially sensitive. There is a disturbing trend for the new wave of railway management to ignore the enthusiast. They do so at their peril, many of us have supported the various share issues and helped with the flood recovery fund in 2007. I remember making a donation to the West Somerset many years ago when they nearly went under but I wouldn’t do it again. Many of us who get our enjoyment from photo charters are those who were in at the start and put money and effort in to establishing what are now the premier league railways.

    What the Valley are doing is basically saying; sod off we don’t need you so that’s probably what I’ll do after nearly 52 years of membership. There are plenty of enthusiast friendly lines still out there, the most notable, the almost 100% volunteer led Worth Valley.

    I know these events don’t make a great deal of money for the railway but as someone has already said, with the Saint five or six days of charters would easily be sold out. The Valley is the only railway with GW stock of suitable vintage in the right livery so an organiser could charge a premium rate, say thirty participants a day at £100 each. I wonder if the Great Western Society know they have missed out on potentially five or six days steaming fees.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2021
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  17. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    One thing I would add for anyone going to the gala, please respect the locals. I contacted a farmer I know about accessing his land but, in view of the current situation, he asked me to stay away this year which I can fully understand. There are plenty of footpaths crossing the line and a few roadside locations, along with the classic riverside scenes.

    The railway is clearly a bit anti linesider at present and we don’t want that to get any worse so please obey all the Covid rules.
     
    Last edited: Mar 5, 2021
  18. Sidmouth

    Sidmouth Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Moderator

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    morning john

    you are clearly at liberty to share what you have been told , I am equally at liberty to perhaps be keen to keep a bridge or two open . It may only need a head to change for the door to become ajar once more

    on a broader note we as enthusiasts perhaps need to be careful with a sense of our own importance . to put that into context my photo charter turnover (and by extension what preserved railways receive) is around a tenth of the Llangollen Railway losses in 2018,2019 and 2020. With that in mind any preserved line is clearly at liberty to choose what commercial activities they welcome on non running days . One preserved line I work with had recently pushed back planned spring dates we were working on to facilitate a filming contract which is going to be far more profitable than a charter. In the SVR case multiple running days testing 69001 is also I suspect far more profitable . no railway is under any obligation to host a photo charter and I am incredibly grateful to all that do

    The intangible is of course the publicity and goodwill charters generate . I will be keen to see how the SVR pair 2999 on GW stock over the gala . the photo charters would have generated images which would have graced much of the railway press and possibly the national press , the control a charter offers increasing the likelyhood that the money shots of 2999 on toplights would have been secured, especially given that a number of locations are no longer accessible given the changes with lineside passes. My first event back in 1997 generated the image of 3442 on teaks which graced the front cover of the Ordnance Survey Map for many years. In my case whilst I wish the SVR no ill and will continue to support them the reality is I am spoilt for choice in terms of lines I can visit . I have a list of lines long overdue either for a return or first visit and freed of maybe an unspoken obligation on my part to support the SVR I can make some inroads into that list
     
  19. Johnb

    Johnb Nat Pres stalwart

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    I did acknowledge that charters don’t make a lot for the railway but they do foster good will and, as you say, provide a lot of good copy for the railway press.
    I have no intention of rocking the boat further by sharing what I have been told, as you say, the door may be shut but hasn’t been locked.
    The Valley aren’t the only line that had this issue and what I call, the take over by the men in suits goes back a long way. The earliest example was what is now the S Devon Railway in the late 60s when the new board rewrote the constitution, removing the mission statement; to restore the Ashburton Branch and operate it in the traditions of Great Western Railway. It was then that I cancelled my membership and joined the Valley. A lot of the volunteers did the same thing.
    For hands on support, I’ll stick with the two locomotive owning groups where everyone works with a single purpose in mind.
     
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  20. Kje7812

    Kje7812 Part of the furniture

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    The SVR has its reasons (there was a NBI on the matter today).

    Anyway, less than 6 weeks to go.
     

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