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Locomotive Superintendents

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Dunfanaghy Road, Feb 25, 2021.

  1. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    I thought that a general discussion of Locomotive Superintendents (and Chief Mechanical Engineers) may be of interest.
    Kick off with Dugald Drummond.
    Many of us have seen photos with headings such as 'Major Drummond of the Volunteers'. To me it conjures up an image of DD tabbing across Wimbledon Common, practicing sniping from behind a bush! So I looked him up the London Gazette. Dated 17th October 1899, headed War Office, sub-headed Volunteer Corps:
    The Engineer and Railway Staff Corps,
    Dugald Drummond, Esq., to be Major. dated 18th October 1899.
    Currently known as the Engineer and Logistic Staff Corps, and involved in the building of Nightingale Hospitals, recruitment is by invitation and limited to 60 individuals, 30 ranked major and 30 ranked Lieutenant Colonel and is recognition of being a mover and shaker in the engineering and transport fields. Quite an honour to be asked, I would think.
    Pat
     
  2. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    Following on from Mr. Drummond's military status.
    Looking through the 'Army List' for the 1st World War years (1914 to 1919) I found the said Engineer and Staff Corps. Some very well known names (and I had no idea);
    JAF Aspinall (Lt Col. 11 Aug 1900)
    HS Wainwright (Major 7 May 1900 to 1915)
    CJ Bowen Cooke (Major 1 Jan 1916)
    REL Maunsell (Major 6 Jan 1917)
    And OT I know, the likes of Sam Fay, Herbert Walker, Sir Guy Granet, The Szlumpers (pére at fils), &c. A pretty starry line-up.
    Pat
    PS My apologies to shade of Sir Henry Fowler (Temp. Lt-Col 1 Jan 1916)
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  3. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    Then there's Lt. Col. Edward Thompson, twice mentioned in despatches.
     
  4. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. Wikipedia isn't any help, frankly. There is a whole column of Thompson E in the 1918 Army List, of all manner of Regiments and Corps. Give me a bit more to go on and I'll look him up.
    Pat
     
  5. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    I was going to post a scan of an article in a 1939 copy of The Locomotive, being a biography of William Adams by Hamilton Ellis. But I keep getting a'Security Alert'. Help!
    Pat
     
  6. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    HQ of the Director General of Transport, France from 1916. Previously at Woolwich Arsenal.
     
  7. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    A little oddity I discovered in GWR locomotive committee minutes. Sources I've seen state the GWR changed the job title from Locomotive Superintendent to Chief Mechanical Engineer in 1915. But Churchward was referred to as the Locomotive Superintendent in Loco Committee minutes right up to his retirement, and the new title only appears after Collett takes over.
     
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  8. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    I think I have him. Initials E.V., is that right?
    Army Service Corps, Temporary Lt.-Colonel w.e.f 20/12/1915.
    The 1918 index had 32 E. Thompson's, and that is excepting Canadians, Australian doctors and Padres!
    Pat
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  9. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    It's no surprise that an old title lingered. This was the railway after all!
    Back in my home territory we read that Mr. Drummond, as CME, was responsible for footplate crews, but that when Mr. Urie succeeded him in 1912 (as CME) the Running Dept was taken away and given to Traffic. But the latest 'Stovepipe' from the Urie Loco Soc. has a piece by Robert Urie (grandson of RW Urie) relating to the Notice that RWU issued in March 1913 setting out the Conditions of service of Drivers and Firemen. And, when I had a look at the South Western Circle's copy (of a copy) of the June 1919 Engine workings it is headed 'Locomotive Engineer's Running Office, Eastleigh Works'. So who knows (I just hope all the gentlemen concerned did!)
    Pat
     

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  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think there was a gradual reduction in the scope of the Loco Superintendent role (or appointment of a greater number of chief officers - take your pick) as railways became bigger enterprises in the early twentieth century. The precise dates may have been aligned with changes of personnel allowing a wider reorganisation.

    As an example, Stroudley was Locomotive and Carriage Superintendent, with responsibility for new construction and repairs; but also had responsibility for the running department; maritime affairs (which were quite large for the LBSCR) and outdoor machinery (e.g. turntables, watering facilities etc). Fifty years later, REL Maunsell was the chief mechanical engineer of the SR, but only with responsibility for steam locomotives and carriages and wagon (in which he had a deputy CME - Surrey Warner): electric traction went to AW Raworth as Electrical Engineer (New Works); running went to AD Jones as Locomotive Running Superintendent who had a dotted reporting line to Maunsell for shed repairs, but not the rest of his remit; Gilbert Szlumper as Docks and Marine Manager. But in contrast to Stroudley, Maunsell had over 2,000 locomotives under his care, against the 300 or so that Stroudley had when he started.

    It always amazes me with the Victorian Loco Superintendents just how wide their role was. They could at one moment be recommending a works construction programme of tens of thousands of capital investment, or negotiating the next six months of coal supply amounting to tens of thousands of tons; and then the next moment be adjudicating in some minor disciplinary case of a driver who departed a station without the correct lamps and was docked 5/- from their pay. That can't have been an efficient use of their time.

    Tom
     
    Last edited: Feb 25, 2021
  11. 30567

    30567 Part of the furniture Friend

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    The date looks about right. Simon might know his middle name, none of the websites I looked at mention it.

    Peter
     
  12. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    Something else which may, or may not, chime with someone.
    In July 1900 application was made to wind up the 'Doherty Iron Castings Process Ltd' (finally wound up in August 1909. The petitioners (and shareholders) included:
    Dugald Drummond, London and South Western Railway, Nine Elms Station. Locomotive Superintendent, and
    Samuel Wraeth Johnson (sic), Lenton House, Nottingham. Locomotive Superintendent.
    (The others named were 3 Gentlemen and 1 Forwarding Agent.)
    I had thought that Messrs. Johnson and Drummond were not on good terms, so maybe not true.
    Pat
     
  13. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Being partners in a failing enterprise is one way of getting on bad terms!
     
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  14. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    Could it be that the CME job got too big which is why (it seems to me) that around the turn of the C20 a number of CMEs suffer health breakdowns and premature deaths. (This is just an impressionistic view) And in response the job was broken up?
     
  15. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm sure there is something in that. It is also notable the number of companies that found they were outgrowing their works, and what they did about that, round about that time. (Particularly moving workshops from cramped inner city locations to places with more room for expansion).
    • LBSCR outgrew Brighton, and sort of hedged the issue by devolving C&W to a new site at Lancing, but the process of doing so more or less broke Billinton and Marsh successively
    • LSWR outgrew Nine Elms and moved to Eastleigh, seemingly in an efficient manner - but their ability to deliver successful major projects in the 1900 - 1920ish time period was staggering: Southampton Harbour, Eastleigh, Waterloo, Feltham, electrification ...
    • SECR - on merger, they ran down Longhedge as a place for new construction and developed Ashford, eventually successfully but not without an initial repair backlog problem
    • GWR - @Jimc is better placed to comment, but the end of the Broad gauge was a catalyst to develop Swindon as the primary home of locomotive construction, where before Wolverhampton had had primacy for new standard gauge locos.
    • NER - concentrated new loco construction from Gateshead to Darlington in the early years of the century
    I'm sure there are other examples. The story is of companies becoming ever larger and with significant reorganisations and capital programmes under way.

    Tom
     
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  16. S.A.C. Martin

    S.A.C. Martin Part of the furniture

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    ...and awarded an OBE, Military Division, for that service at the Battle of Passchendale (Ypres).

    Yes, that is the correct Edward Thompson, of the L.N.E.R. - we know this from a few sources, but it can be crossed referenced both by the position he held, the regiment he was in, and the years he saw active service. Besides which - it is related in the major biography of him as written by Peter Grafton, and in my research I found the original mentions in dispatches, and also the follow up for the OBE.
     
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    There is a very fine photo of Major HS Wainwright in military uniform in front of me as I type. Needless to say, since it is Wainwright, that military uniform is not battle fatigues, but full ceremonial levee dress with plumed hat, sash, brocade and ceremonial sword, as a Major in the Kent Terrtorials ... I'm not sure he did a lot of scrabbling round in the trenches!

    With the others: @S.A.C. Martin has already pointed out that Thompson was mentioned in dispatches - were the others all fighting soldiers as well? I seemed to recall in the back of my mind (but can't find the reference) that Maunsell's position was really a rank given so as to afford him an equivalent military status to help him in military liaison for his work on the Railway Executive Committee during World War I - it wasn't a command role in the Regular or Territorial Army. Though I might have just made that up.

    Tom
     
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  18. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Lawson Billinton certainly served in 'a railway related capacity' (as a Lt.Col, if memory serves), on one assignment, getting caught up in some hairy situations during the Bolshevik revolution. There's quite a bit of detail, plus photo in uniform, in his biography, though I don't have it to hand at the moment.
     
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  19. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    The GWR is more about people than gauges! I haven't got my references here, but as I recall roughly speaking when the GWR amalagamated with/took over the West Midland Railway the West Midland became the Northern division, and this was narrow gauge. With the West Midland and its Wolverhampton shops came Joseph Armstrong, the Superintendent, and his younger brother George. Both were from the same sort of Newcastle/mines/engineering background as Gooch, Stephenson etc. Broadly speaking Gooch left JA to run Wolverhampton as he'd been doing.

    When Gooch retired Joseph got the job and moved to Swindon, taking with him his young assistant William Dean, whilst George was left at Wolverhampton to run the Northern division. There seems little evidence of Joseph giving his younger brother many orders, and George was very much the Victorian benevolent dictator who gave orders rather than taking them.

    However when Joseph died at 60 in 1877 Dean was promoted over George's head to be the Locomotive Superintendant. Dean seems to have left George to run his own empire his way rather than give orders to George that would almost certainly have been ignored, although there was evident co-operation. George retired at 75 in 1897, and from then on the independence of Wolverhampton rapidly decreased - a sign of this was the replacement of all the distinctive Wolverhampton style rounded chimney caps with sharper Swindon style within a very few years!
     
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  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    The question of mergers is interesting. In the North East, the Stockton and Darlington was nominally absorbed into the NER in 1863, but seemed to continue along a more or less independent path largely oblivious to the legal terms of the merger for years afterwards - Edward Fletcher (the NER CME) seemed quite content to design locos at Gateshead for the NER while the S&D continued to do its own thing at Darlington. It took until around 1873 before S&D locos started to have their own number sequence within the wider NER list (formed by adding 1000 to the old S&D number - before that the NER nominally had two locomotives running with the same numbers). It was really only with the coming of Wordsell around 1885 that the railway started to have a singular locomotive policy - indeed, it was as late as 1894, over thirty years after the merger, before there was a single definitive listing of how many locos the company actually had!

    By contrast, the LCDR and SER merged(*) in 1898 and almost immediately there was a single locomotive policy with new designs being built for the combined company.

    (*) Technically, formed a working union - the companies never actually merged.

    Tom
     

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