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Recommissioning after Coronavirus

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by johnofwessex, Mar 24, 2020.

  1. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    I don’t think private railways should have been given public money, when other sectors which serve a far larger proportion of the population are left to rot with millions out of work.

    No many railways have become bloated on the purse of grants racking up many many paid members of staff, then want money again from the public to support them when it goes wrong.

    The sector as a whole is in a real risk of collapse when donations really start to dry up over the next half dozen years.
     
  2. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Other than in 2020, can you give any examples of public grants being given to railways simply to help them stay afloat, rather than funding new capital projects, not including heritage lottery money (as you specifically said that was fine)?
     
  3. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    Do you object to public money being used for the support of museums, art galleries, libraries, theatres etc etc?

    Which organisations do you think deserve support and haven't received it?

    Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk
     
  4. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    Short answer is..no.

    No one could of foreseen or planned for 2020, I do wonder how many railways had a reserve and how fast it was burnt through.

    I do know though a few railways, such as the WSR have been asking for funds to simple maintain their railway the £500k track appeal.

    Take a quick look in the Steam Railway mag each month, you’ll see literally millions of pounds worth of appeals from railways, and loco groups.

    What happens when the older people aren’t here anymore, and the younger ones can’t afford to simply give money to a steam loco or railway?

    The sector is kicking the can down the road in many cases, I can see a core of railways lasting long term but a lot of them closing in the next decade as the real effect of C19 hits the country like a freight train.
     
  5. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    Yes, how many people out of the official circa 66m population use those facilities each year? So they provide value for money, are they accessible or interesting?

    Through mismanagement large areas of public services are desperate for more funding, money they’d being used to prop up failing visitor attractions.

    As I understand it (correct me if I’m wrong) but wasn’t / isn’t any business permitted to apply for support funds? Local shop supporting a community needs funds to help it through yes, local 1 Mile nowhere fo nowhere private railway does that deserve funds ?
     
  6. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Aren't you making an arbitrary decision about which businesses are deserving of funds base don what they do, rather than whether they cotnribute to the economy by making jobs and paying tax? So a local shop deserves public money. What does it sell, food, other essentials? Fine. Ok, so how about if it sells some toys too, still fine? What about just a toy shop? How about a model shop? How about a model shop attached to a heritage railway?.... Do you see what I'm getting at? Saying a business won't be viable ten years down the line is not a good enough argument to say it shouldn't receive public funding, not with the relatively small sums involved (for public subsidy) anyway.

    I'm not quite sure how the comparison with museums stack up either, sure, the big ones all get more visitors than any heritage railway, British museum gets about 6 million visitors a year, NRM 800,000 or so, but what about smaller museums? There must be countless museums who get fewer visitors than heritage railways, yet you say they are worthy of public funding where heritage railways, most of which are billed as "living museums" or similar are not?

    Again, this is very broad brush stroke. part from isolated examples, like potentially the WSR, can you show that whole "genres" of attractions are unviable if it weren't for public money, outside of 2020? Heritage railways simply don't fit into that category, as many were merrily succeeding prior to 2020, along with some that were declining.
     
  7. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Coronavirus was a once-in-a-century event; I don't begrudge any support to heritage railways (or museums and the like) in that scenario. For the economy at large, the difficulty the Government will face is how to wind down support in a way that doesn't impose undue hardship, but nonetheless doesn't support zombie companies. But that is probably a discussion for a different thread.

    On the wider point: people have been predicting the demise of heritage railways for a long time, and thus far relatively few have gone to the wall. As for "What happens when the older people aren’t here anymore, and the younger ones can’t afford to simply give money to a steam loco or railway?" - the answer is they get replaced by a new generation of older people. Even now, many of the people of later years who tend to be very financially generous towards appeals are too young to have remembered steam first time round, so presumably they are doing so for reasons other than nostalgia (just as no-one visits a medieval castle to recreate their youth, but they remain perennially popular ...) and on that basis I don't see any inherent reason why that shouldn't continue. In my fifties now, I can afford to be generous to appeals in a way I couldn't when I was in my twenties or thirties; but by time I have shuffled off this mortal coil, today's teenagers and twenty year olds might be in their fifties and sixties and similarly able to be generous with their support.

    Tom
     
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  8. oldmrheath

    oldmrheath Well-Known Member

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    The economy currently needs various stimuli to try and limit some of the damage from covid. Heritage railways will tend to spend any funding on keeping people employed doing something useful rather than sitting at home furloughed, they will also spend funds in generating genuine demand in the economy for materials etc .

    Is it better for public funds to be given to a not-for-profit railway, which the pays its employee to repair the boiler using newly-purchased materials, enabling the railway to run trains benefitting the local economy once this is over, or pay furlough/jobseeking benefits or give the money directly to the private company with shareholders which makes the boiler components to allow it survive while its future customers (the railways) go bust? I know which I would prefer.



    Jon
     
  9. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    Well, you're a little ray of sunshine,aren't you?
    If you despise the heritage railways so much, should you be posting here?
    Pat
     
  10. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    There's a fundamental principle to be considered. If you are able to trade and things go awry for whatever reason, such as Covid, then it is up to you to sort things out. If, however, you are prevented from carrying on your legitimate business, you are entitled to compensation. This is effectively what has happened with lockdowns. By requiring you to close, the government have prevented you from carrying on your legitimate business and must compensate accordingly. Whether the compensation that you receive is suitable and sufficient or even too much is always going to be open to question but, unless someone goes to court, we will just have to guess.
     
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  11. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    The cultural recovery fund paid for the steam. Illuminations services on the Watercress Line. These brought a bit of joy to (based on the reach of various news outlets) over 12 million. That's less than 1/2pence per person. Money well spent I think to lighten the mood a little.

    Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk
     
  12. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    Despise, that’s a little strong based on a few posts on a very particular topic.
     
  13. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    Outside of 2020 and Lottery grants there has been public support, through enterprise grants. The SVR's Engine House at Highley attracted a £200,000 grant from the then Advantage West Midlands, which also included Highley footbridge. AWM also made a grant to the SVR's 2007 flood appeal. Euro grants were made for these plus Bridgnorth Footbridge and Country Park Halt. All were over a decade ago and such funding is now in the hands of Local Enterprise Partnerships (I'll spare you my thoughts on them). The important point is that this source of funding is granted as support to tourist enterprises, rather than as heritage railways. AWM did some work at the time of the storms in 2007: I'd have to look up the figures but the SVR was then contributing from memory around £9 million to the local economy - it's that wider economic benefit as well as the cultural benefit that drives public and lottery funding.

    @Great Western I would say that I was surprised how much government and lottery money has been granted to heritage railways in England, compared with other sectors.

    Patrick
     
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  14. sleepermonster

    sleepermonster Member

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    I see the latest news is that outdoor recreational facilities, e.g. golf courses, may reopen w.e.f. end of March. Has anyone any idea what the position will be for heritage railways with compartment stock; these were classified as "not indoor events" in the run up to Christmas. Do we have hopes for Easter?
     
  15. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    Hopes yes, but on past form it will be unclear from announcements and even some (draft) guidance what heritage railways can do. Some railways previously got into difficulty by misinterpreting rules. I'd wait for the announcement, orders to be published, HRA clarification and announcements from railways in the coming days. It's still 5 weeks off.

    I for one hope restrictions will be lifted only if and when it's clearly safe to do so.

    Patrick
     
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  16. LMarsh1987

    LMarsh1987 Part of the furniture Friend

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    The SVR seem very confident !
    SSS.PNG
     
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  17. goldfish

    goldfish Nat Pres stalwart

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    Much cheaper to cancel/postpone an event because rules won’t allow it to proceed, than have permission to open the railway but no one showing up. Hope for the best, plan for the worst.

    Simon
     
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  18. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    By fluke they've also booked the dates after Step 2 is (all Covid-related factors behaving) due to be introduced, so if railways aren't allowed under step 1 (or step 1.5 coming in on 29 March), there's better hope for Step 2.
    Looking at the confirmed list of things that can open at different stages on the BBC, it's possible heritage railways could be lumped in under either "Public Buildings like Libraries and Museums" or if they can claim to be outdoorsy type venues they can probably get under the Zoos and Theme Park-esque banner. I remember at some stages when Zoos were allowed they didn't open the indoor areas, and at other stages they did, so I would guess if Zoos can open and allow you into the reptile house, chances are you can sit in a compartment behind a steam train.
    I would expect if they're not allowed to open then, they should be allowed under Step 3 from 17 May (Covid permitting) when Cinemas and Performances start up again.
    I reckon Easter might be just a week too early, but I'd be more confident about a Covid-secure railway operation from April 12. Step 2 seems broadly similar to Tier 3 and there were some railways that were happy to run (and passengers happy to pay them a visit) in Tier 3 areas at the end of last year.
     
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  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That was certainly my reading, step 2 seems likely to encompass heritage railways, with a slim chance of it being step 1.5 with outdoor leisure facilities allowed to open and the rule of 6 making a return.

    It'll be interesting to see if there are any differences in railways' responses to this like there was last year. And where do we think being allowed to return to general volunteering fits in? Most railways have limited activity to business continuity essential tasks only over the last couple of months, although again, there has been a wide difference in what is being considered as "essential" from railway to railway!
     
  20. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    This is very true. I remember last summer the vast majority of railway lines didn't resume until August, 4 weeks after restrictions lifted to permit them to do so. Probably because of the need to check over the line and stock, bring everything back up to operational condition etc. But then, last year they got 10 days notice. This time they've got about 7 weeks, so if prep work can be done in line with current guidelines one could expect an ability to resume sooner...
     

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