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S&D Midsomer

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by 37422 Cardiff Canton, May 29, 2008.

  1. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    I am getting a slightly different perspective on that ...... !

    News
     
  2. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    I wasnt so convinced by it before, but when the International Energy Agency, having actually looking at the figures properly, start talking of a plateau of production around 2020, you know Peak Oil cant be dismissed.

    Chris
     
  3. Martin Perry

    Martin Perry Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator Friend

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    It may be so but at the same time is speculation - informed speculation I grant you, but the statement was 'Oil IS running out' and from where I am sitting that does not seem to be the case right now.
     
  4. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    demand will be reduced by reducing supply causing prices to rise and new technology will become cheaper in direct corealtion.... proving this the statement "oil is running out" is of no relevance.
     
  5. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    Even if it is the case that a plateau of oil production around 2020, I still fail to see why that would give a political or economic justification for the Somerset & Dorset to be re-opened in full; as has been stated on other threads, in a post-oil world I can think of a number of more necessary routes than a rambling cross-country line across the Mendips that was only really legendary among enthusiasts, and even then owing mainly to its operational difficulties.

    'Still, nice line' as Alan Partridge would say...
     
  6. mendipsengineman

    mendipsengineman New Member

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    if people cant afford to run their cars and buses too run on oil, then without their local station, people will be stuffed, plain and simple!
     
  7. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    what will the trains run on ?
     
  8. James

    James Part of the furniture

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    So they'll run on gas, electricity, or biofuel instead. Or move. No one is going to walk 2 miles to a station in the middle of nowhere for an all-shacks trundle through the hills.

    You sound more like a religious fundamentalist than a transport campaigner.
     
  9. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    Are you so blind as to fail to see the prospect of alternative power sources being developed to meet the needs of the future? Some of these sources are already at a realistic stage of development, and provide a far more realistic alternative than a difficult to operate, out of the way cross-country route that barely made any money even when there was no alternative.

    I maintain; if such an 'end of the world' scenario were to actually happen, then it is my personal opinion that we would be more likely to see a retrenchment towards major cities, in a similar manner to the population shift to the cities of the Victorian era, than a rambling railway line built to meet a perceived Victorian need becoming the next key transport artery.

    In terms of the capital required for such a fantasy, if you're going to pull a couple of million quid out of your arse, it may help to stand up...
     
  10. BillR

    BillR Well-Known Member

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    If you read about the Kemble to Swindon redoubling, you'll see that 48 million quid is the estimate (at present) for 12 miles of line.
    There will be no land to purchase, no embankments/cuttings/bridges to buy or build, just ballast/track & signaling at 4 million a mile.

    So how much is the new S&D going to cost?
     
  11. boldford

    boldford Member

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    This figure is of course laying an additional line next the the existing operational one. 100% green zone can be a lot cheaper, however the cost of CPOs etc must be considered off-setting that advantage.
     
  12. afvideo

    afvideo New Member

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    James, you're not the only one who would find the thought of pootling along from Bath to Bournemouth on some clapped out old FGW Pacer totally depressing.

    What's the point of building something in the 21st century that dates back to a design from 1820. (That's the track, by the way, not the Pacers!). No, the people of Britain deserve something better in the New Millenium.

    If the Slow and Dirty is to reopen it has got to be as Britain's first TGV line - lets have something decent for a change. It could be the first of many in the country - the TGV-S&D could be the pioneer.

    The track would have to be to full LGV spec giving a much bigger loading guage, this would enable a fleet of the TGV Duplex trains to be bought - that's the ones with two levels. Full 25kv overhead thoughout. Those tunnels at Chilcompton, Winsor Hill etc would have to go though to accommodate this, along with those quaint old stations at Midsomer Norton and Chilcompton... they'd be too much of an anachronism on the modern railway.

    Put a compulsory purchase order on anything in the way, get the bulldozers in, the concrete laid, the catenary up and we'll be zipping along to the new Bournemouth West at nearly 200mph - fantastic!

    Plus, you'll have have the added bonus of hopping off your Prussian Blue liveried, French built TGV-S&D Duplex at Bath Green Park and nipping straight into Sainsburys for some sarnies and a bottle of coke.

    Its electric, its clean, its fast, it would be in a nice shade of blue and would truly be Swift and Delightful.

    Anything less - forget it.

    Regards

    Andrew - former resident of Henstridge
     
  13. Sunshiner

    Sunshiner New Member

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    There's an awful lot of point missing here.

    Oil IS running out, no matter how much the dreamers don't want it to, because it's a finite resource - nobody claims otherwise as far as I'm aware!

    That doesn't mean we will run out of energy, but it does almost certainly mean the end of individual transport (ie cars) for several reasons. Any alternatives will be far more expensive than petrol/diesel, which will probably prove to be the easiest/cheapest energy source we will ever have access to. Cars, no matter what they are made out of, still require a great deal of energy to make or recycle.

    Rail is far more energy-efficient than road (four times as much pull to the pint basically). This is because of the reduced friction of steel wheels on steel rails.

    Roads themselves need oil to construct - the machines used to make roads and the materials used in them.

    Are you seeing the point? Oil was an incredibly cheap and abundant form of energy, and easy to use, transport and store. ANY alternative will cost far more, both in financial terms and energy input terms. As a result we will see ANY future goverment forcing a switch from personal road-based transport to public rail-based transport.

    This process has already started.

    I've not even looked at the other imperative that any future energy sources should be low-carbon or carbon-neutral, because of the climate chaos uncontrolled use of hydrocarbons is already unleashing. Again, this is not contentious, there is a concensus that this is happening, despite what you'll read in the Mail or Guardian.

    The inevitable outcome? A huge increase in railway construction. Now, how does a particular local area make sure its line is rebuilt at the start of the new railway age, rather than at the end? By preparing now. By networking, by buying up the land, by gaining the skills it needs to make it happen.

    The New S&D has NOTHING to do with heritage lines along the S&D, but everything to do with securing OUR local railway, to enable us to flourish in the future.

    You won't find the apocalyptic stuff on the New S&D blog - the people that want to see civilization fall should be executed at the first opportunity! But we do need a managed retreat from hydrocarbons (not just oil) to prevent too much upset.

    Sorry to be the commonsense voice here, but sometimes commonsense is actually right for a change, and I suspect the future, free of congestion, consumerism, celebrity culture, health and safety, security concerns and welfare will be a far more commonsense place, one with a New S&D running slap bang through the middle of it.

    http://somersetanddorset.blogspot.com/
     
  14. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    Surely the common sense viewpoint is the one that looks at the need for a particular railway line and realises that no matter how much enviro-babble you spout, it still provides not one real jot of political, economic or practical justification for rebuilding an out of the way, rambling cross-country route like the Somerset & Dorset?

    There are much greater priorities for rebuilding as a public transport provider, present or future, than the S&D.
     
  15. arthur maunsell

    arthur maunsell Well-Known Member

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    absolutely, rail is an outmoded form of transport (sorry) it only came into existance in the first place because the roads were not able to carry the traffic because the technology didnt exist and because the roads were very sub-standard. Now and into the future this isnt the case , so why would a retrun to rail be desirable?, Road, however the vehicles are powered is many times more flexible, why, I even have one outside my home!

    By all means promote HS2 3 4 etc which WOULD make a contribution (by reducing air travel AND long-distance road travel) but re-open the S&D? dream on

    Oh and an end to personal transport? well lets hear a politician suggest THAT and keep his seat!
     
  16. Christopher125

    Christopher125 Part of the furniture

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    Mendipsengineman, i still dont see how your argument means that the S&D is going to rebuilt; it isnt a short, local branch line, its a long cross-country railway that would be astronomically expensive to rebuild. The increased cost of private transport might well lead to a more intensive and extensive (electric/hydrogen/biomass..) bus network, but the line never was and most likely never will be viable based on the transport needs of relatively few local people.

    Chris
     
  17. mendipsengineman

    mendipsengineman New Member

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    Well, you all missed the points that sunshiner made didnt you? and we're not even under the right thread here. ](*,) ](*,) ](*,)
     
  18. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    On the contrary, I read the points he made, applied them to the concept of a full reinstatement of the S&D, and still see no realistic connection between 'peak oil' and the need for the S&D to be reconstructed. It more appears to be you who is not able to see that the traditional route of S&D is out of the way, serving too few significant communities in an indirect manner, and is simply not a viable means of transport now or in the future.

    If you were to be proposing an effective, modern, high-speed line with the relevant credentials to back such a proposal up then maybe people's opinions would be different; however I reiterate, no matter how much you maintain the age of personal transport is in decline, you have still failed to provide any direct connection between this and the need to rebuild a rural cross-country route that doesn't actually add that much to the intercity rail network we currently have.

    And in terms of not being under the right thread, maybe it would be a good idea to start a thread discussing a full S&D reinstatement rather than singly under the revival schemes at individual stations; however let me just take a look back and see who first raised the point of a 'peak oil' induced full revival of the S&D on this thread...
     
  19. mendipsengineman

    mendipsengineman New Member

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    modern or future designs of traction would make the gradients insignificant. the point, is theres 107 miles of trackbed, bought and paid for long ago going to complete waste, whilst we all sit in our traffic jams.

    Norton Radstock, shepton mallett, wincanton, tblandford...THE S&D went right through the middle of quite large towns / conurbations. I dont quite think theyre insignificant........

    the new rail age is just around the corner, but it will get worse before it gets better
     
  20. Stewie Griffin

    Stewie Griffin Member

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    Bought and paid for long ago, and subsequently bought and paid for by a couple of thousand other people and fragmented into God knows how many pieces.

    Where's the money coming from to complete the jigsaw?
     

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