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Isle of Wight Steam Railway

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Freshwater, Nov 12, 2013.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    The IOWSR Is undoubtingly a successes story, having managed to not just manage to extract its self from Newport, but survived the very lean years after that, when it could have so easily have folded, People forget just how precarious times were for all the preserved railways back then, Many, if not all, were essentually only serviving hand to mouth, with little, or nothing should anything major happen. That it has evolved and grown, is due to those early members who took a lot of risks, prehaps later this year, can a plaque be places somewhere at Haven Street to remember them, whilst some are still with us?
     
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  2. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I don't think there are any SR locos / carriages currently equipped to operate in push-pull fashion (or pull and push, as it was more commonly known on the SR). I think the only current opportunities to experience genuine operation of that kind, controlled by a driver in a leading coach, are using GWR locos and carriages.

    Tom
     
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  3. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    Are there any drawings/photos of the P&P gear that could be used to recreate such a system?
     
  4. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    I'm afraid not, none of the locos have any kit for these, though I think some of the fittings have been installed within one of the 4 wheelers for the look. It is in the long term plan to restore the system to operation, but there would need to be some work done to make this a reality (I'm sure the safety inspectors would want to see a strong case).

    It's probably one of those non-core business things that is a nice to do at some point but can't really be a priority, but we do run goods trains so never say never! I'm trying to avoid saying WIBN because I'd like to see it myself :D
     
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  5. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    I see, I thought as much it wasn't genuinely being operated in that fashion, as one would think they'd make a big deal at having such a set up seeing as no one (as yet) SR wise can do that.
    I have to imagine there must be, and that it is on the cards at the IoWSR to set it up properly at some point. Several times they reference the push-pull set in their future long term plans document, so that would imply they clearly have intent to make use of it.

    Ah well that's fair enough, I understand it not being too high a priority right now, seeing as the coaches in question I'm not sure are that high in capacity anyway are they?

    Must confess unless told otherwise I wouldn't have noticed those carriages were a push-pull set though, as they don't have the usual key signs of a push-pull set. Sure they got windows at the back to look down the tracks, but most early SR brake ends of carriages have window looking back anyway!
     
  6. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    If you look closely the 'cab' has brake fittings and even a whistle driven from the brake pipe I think
     
  7. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    Oh that's interesting to know, curious now as to what the whistle sounds like, a Terrier type maybe?
     
  8. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    If a 'safe' system could be designed and approved for use, there are also the ex P&P coaches on the Swanage that could possibly benefit too.
     
  9. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Neither W8 nor W11 have motor train gear nowadays The Ventnor West set has some of the gear but it is not complete.

    I was told that W11 spent more time on chalk trains from Shide to Cement Mills than on the Ventnor West service. There is a film of the primitive looking cement plant where an improbably glittering W11 shunts wagons in messy surroundings. Similarly contrasting are the ragged clothes worn by the works people and the guard's waistcoat and watch chain. Moreover, some of the watches issued to I.O.W. railwaymen had sterling silver cases and chains.
     
  10. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    In the earlier discussion about Terriers, this photo was referenced:

    http://www.bluebell-railway.co.uk/bluebell/personal/mike-nichols/lswr_735_1.html

    Which is interesting in that it shows the Heath-Robinson LSWR pull and push arrangements, operated by cables strung across the top of the locomotive. You can see the brackets on the cab roof and chimney, and - just - a bracket mounted on the safety valve.

    Go on, see if you can get that system past your safety inspectors!

    Tom
     
  11. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    Not sure why you'd have that much difficulty, if GWR auto-trains are permitted to work still, plus if the SR used this push-pull system of there's for years without problem I see no reason why the inspectors would have objections now.

    Wouldn't the 'grandfathers right' rule sort of apply to this too? Basically meaning if it worked fine before in the past without issues, and you don't change it too much from the original design, then yes it can be approved to be used now.
     
  12. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I think the point is, the LSWR cable-operated push-pull really didn't work fine, even by the standards of the era - hence why the SR standardised on what was basically the LBSCR compressed air system.

    As for grandfather rights: I'm never really sure whether they exist or not. I suspect if you wanted to introduce push-and-pull to your operations, you'd need a stronger justification than "it was in widespread use until about 60 years ago". One change that seems to be fairly common when I've seen GWR systems in operation is to insist on three-man crews, i.e. driver and fireman on the footplate, and driver in the driving carriage. While that doesn't add any extra cost with volunteer crews, it does add to the rostering overhead, so you could imagine it not being especially popular for routine operation - high days and holidays OK, but perhaps not for mid weeks!

    Tom
     
  13. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    Ah I see, well that's fair enough then, wasn't aware that it didn't really work all that well. So I assume this would be a challenge for the folks at Swanage to overcome then? Seeing as they too have a push-pull set they intend to restore for use with the M7 at some stage for use on the railway.

    Perhaps then you could have it operate at least with the three man crew method as you pointed out. Not ideal for regular use, but could be used on certain occasions as you say, which is probably what would be the ideal means in which to make use of it anyway.
     
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I'm sure that if Swanage wanted to go down that route, they would use the compressed air system, which was in any case later fitted to M7s and is prototypically correct for 30053 in the BR era.

    (Plenty of photos here: https://preservedbritishsteamlocomotives.com/30053-sr-53-sr-e53-br-30053/)

    Tom
     
  15. JMJR1000

    JMJR1000 Member

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    Ah okay then, interesting to know, thanks for the info Tom.
     
  16. andrewtoplis

    andrewtoplis Well-Known Member

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    I've heard stories where the push-pull gear was so crap they left them unhooked half the time, though I'm not sure which of the several systems that was! The fireman just opened the regulator and shut it at a certain point, the Driver then used the brake.

    Grandfather rights, as I understand it, only applies to things continually in use (if it does at all), you can't pick up something and say "oh they did it 60 years ago.."

    The system doesn't really save anything, and potentially adds to crew 'costs', so it is only likely to be a gala thing, perhaps for Havenstreet to Wootton shuttles?
     
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  17. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    What you say reminds me of what someone who had fired in the Surrey/Sussex area had to say about the air system which ''never worked''. It seems the loco. inspector was diligent and gave a lot of time to ensure that all new firemen were competent to do everything single handed.
     
  18. cav1975

    cav1975 Member

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    Speaking personally I would like to see this happen.

    If it was to be planned it would be managed in accordance with the railway's SMS and be monitored by the SS&P committee, so safety assurance would be at the expected standard for a 25MPH heritage railway.
     
  19. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Try applying the grandfather rights argument to the operation of slip coaches.:)
    With regard to push pull operation, there are quite a few instances of this method of operation on heritage railways. For example, until recently trains to Corwen were push pull operated. The ORR prefer trains to be hauled but. as long as the risk assessment is OK then it is OK. The prime requirement is to apply the brake and, if the brake won't overcome the applied power, close the regulator.
     
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  20. Dunfanaghy Road

    Dunfanaghy Road Well-Known Member

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    Pull and push was all about reducing time spent at terminals. For instance: Yeovil Duty 939 (June 1919). From 8.5am to 9.43pm it was a shuttle from Town to Junction, with some runs giving 10 minutes at each end before returning. Impossible to operate as a run-round at each end, never mind the effect on the fireman. (He would spend as much time in between as in the cab!) No idea what engine was used, but I'd guess a Flittermouse.
    Pat
     

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