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Fictitious liveries

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by Mighty Mogul, Feb 5, 2009.

  1. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    Which forum was this in, Chris? It sounds even more eccentric than this one :roll:

    Richard
     
  2. Kerosene Castle

    Kerosene Castle Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps the Livery Police would like to investigate this one:

    [​IMG]

    No historical documentation, no direct evidence, just an educated guess on one of four possible scenarios.

    Well said.
     
  3. Neil_Scott

    Neil_Scott Part of the furniture

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    That is authentic though! When Swindon built her they turned her out in Green along with the rest of the batch![/quote:1ed9t0kz]

    Quite correct. 46512 may return in green in a few years time.
     
  4. 22A

    22A Well-Known Member

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    "History is what people believe, and that is what people see."

    Remember the GWR celebration in 1985? A Hall was turned out in (authentic) BR Lined Black and was double heading a main line excursion with a BR Standard in BR Green. I read the crew were questioned by a member of the public "Surely you've got this wrong? You have the GWR loco in black and the Midland loco in green".

    Mentioning the BR Standards, there was one 8P, the remainder had either F or MT classifications. Strictly speaking therefore the "Brits" & "Clans" etc should not have worn green, but lined black.
     
  5. Nick Gough

    Nick Gough Well-Known Member

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    I believe these were 7819 Hinton Manor & 4MT 4-6-0 75069, from the SVR.
     
  6. 22A

    22A Well-Known Member

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  7. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    It has always been an unwritten agreement in preservation that those who restore get the first choice of livery whether it be Loco,s or rolling stock.

    Regards
    Chris Willis
     
  8. Jimc

    Jimc Part of the furniture

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    Of course "Midland" might have been a rather subtle crack at the Kremlin's design decisions...
     
  9. Columbine

    Columbine Member

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    'City of Truro' is in the wrong livery for its condition as is 'Lord Nelson'. I can understand that 'private owners' of locos have on occasion put them into fanciful liveries but that the NRM doesn't stick to a strictly academic view of history really irritates me.

    'Fenchurch' on the Bluebell is in the wrong livery if it is to carry a name, and just what have they done to their Stanier six wheel brake?

    Regards
     
  10. cct man

    cct man Part of the furniture

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    What have they done to their Stanier six wheel brake?, BUTCHERED IT THATS WHAT.
    This vehicle won the ARPS award one year as the best restoration and now look what they do to it.

    Regards
    Chris Willis
     
  11. John Elliot Jnr

    John Elliot Jnr Well-Known Member

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    It was of course the official policy of the BTC Curator of Relics not to paint locomotives in 'correct' liveries.
     
  12. loco cleaner

    loco cleaner New Member

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    What I was trying to put across was, does it matter what colour a loco is turned out in these days when the the Big Four and B.R. could change the colour after every major overhaul.

    The Sky blue and Pink dots was only a joke.

    A major paint manufacturer of paint has over 20 listed Black paints that were used by different loco companies. Which Black would you choose to repaint a Black 5 ?

    I found out recently that B.R. White is not White as we know it but a Cream colour due the basic make up of the paint.
     
  13. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    There are different shades of every colour, including blacks that hint of green, but no shade of black is called Brunswick Green, or Crimson Lake, for that matter. As I said, the railway companies simply used their stock to earn a living - by moving trains; the colour scheme was useful for publicity purposes but at a price, hence the LNWR standardising on black. As an engineer, I fully realise that the primary purpose of paint isto protect the metal underneath, but it also has an aesthetic appeal, hence the various company liveries.

    But we are into preservation, i.e. preserving and maintaining a former era, and the livery is as much a part of that preservation as any other part of the engine. It isn't 'trivial'; on the contrary, as the part that is most visible, it has a high importance. It's 'what people see'.

    There are many solid reasons for painting an engine in a correct scheme, as far as practicality allows. There are some for painting it in an incorrect scheme, some of which have been touched on, but most come down to, 'Because I like it like that,' which isn't a valid argument to my mind.
     
  14. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    This is really just a rehash of the what colour for Flying Scotsman thread is it not?
    actually most of those involved in heritage railways are not - they are into creating an image which resembles to a greater or lesser extent the past but is not the past preserved.

    If it was, most preserved lines would see a very infrequent train service of maybe one or two coaches. There would be no cafes gift shops, workshops, engine sheds full of locos etc etc.

    well if you don't like it, then raise the money and put in the graft and get the object repainted as you would like to see it.

    The owning group/contributors are at the end ofthe day the ones who decide. If they decide on something that doesn't appeal to the market - well that is their look out.
     
  15. Columbine

    Columbine Member

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    I think it is true, to a degree, that as 'Simon' says (or is implying) that the preserved railways don't attempt to perfectly reproduce the past and this surely is because they can't. And it's not simply a question of resources. The BBC when it does one of its costume dramas puts on a good show at great expense, but it doesn't reproduce the past, it simply gives an impression of what we in the 21st century think the past might have been like. I really think that the past is just that, the past, and it cannot be reproduced; it's a practical and philosophical impossibility.

    Having said that it is possible to produce a reasonable impression of the past that can be enjoyed as being truthful and used as an educational tool. This latter phrase is surely of the greatest importance. Last summer I took my grandaughter to Quainton Road (the BRC) as she was doing the Victorians at school and I wanted to show her the way people travelled in the 19th century. I showed her the exhibits and interpreted them for her in a way which supported her school project. Rewley Road station, the cattle wagon, the GNR tri-composite, The LNWR dining coach, Metropolitan No.1, it's all there. But, and it's a big but, what if any of the exhibits had been in the wrong liveries? What of the impression on a ten year old if they had been?

    The railway preservation movement MUST get the matter of historical truth right, for the sake of the coming generation and therefore its own survival. It can be done, it is being done mostly, and it must continue to be done.

    I hate to think what might have happened that Sunday afternoon if I had come across 'Royal Scot' in its projected Crimson Lake livery. What do you do? Tell her it's untruthful with all the implications that other museum exhibits elsewhere might be untruthful or just ignore it? 'Scots Guardsman' would be a wonderful educational tool. Changes of livery with changes of ownership and the development of political concepts; its original form developed to satisfy a commercial need, the design changed as engineering concepts changed and ultimate replacement due to age and changes in traction.

    It is very important that the movement gets this matter right.

    Sorry to be apocalyptical!

    Regards
     
  16. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    I take it you haven't bothered to look at my profile?

    Firstly, that is no argument at all; few people have the time, abilities or - critiaclly - funds to buy and repaint a steam locomotive. Secondly, the fact that someone can't do so does not bar them from expressing an opinion, which is all I have done (my personal opinion, by the way, and not to be construed as reflecting the views of the SMF). Thirdly, the fact that an individual does prefer to see a loco restored to a genuine livery does not imply that they have not and do not take an active part in preservation. Fourthly, when you present any object to the public, you must be prepared to take the criticism along with the praise.

    We are a discussion forum, and I try to express an opinion in a reasonable and logical way. Everyone else can and should express their opinions - in a reasonable and logical way. Too many of these threads wander off into personal comments which add nothing to the argument. I might not convince you of the value of genuine liveries; you will NEVER convince me of the value of spurious ones. But we can still discuss it amicably.
     
  17. simon

    simon Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm sorry that you chose to read my remarks as being "personal" they were not intended that way.

    However, I stick by what I say - the whole quote not just the selective bit.

    On most items of rolling stock the only "right" livery is the one the loco was in on the day it was withdrawn as some modifications are likey to have been made that render an earlier livery "incorrect".

    Yet to the man in the street such historical inaccuracies are meaningless.

    So the restoring group has to make a decision as to what they want to achieve and how and what impact their decisions will have on current and future fund raising - and that IMHO should be the end of the matter.
     
  18. LMS2968

    LMS2968 Part of the furniture

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    Well, as I said, we might not agree but at least we do so amicably.

    But I doubt it's finished!
     
  19. ADB968008

    ADB968008 Guest

    60163 in National Express livery ?
    7828 Ran in a Lime Green GWR livery for 10 years.

    What about all these BR J94 wannabes ?
     
  20. Matt78

    Matt78 Well-Known Member

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    I remember it well, and it led to the loco aquiring the nickname 'Odd Bod Manor!'
     

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