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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    I am not so sure, this assumes that the WSR will pay. The S&DRT are having to pay for the move to the MHR alongside fund raising for 53808, so naturally the money, time and energy is going to them and not on the 'nice to have' projects. If someone is donating it is going to be to the 'safeguard the future' fund not necessarily to the carriage restoration fund because of the threat to the S&DRT. (No S&DRT then no carriages or wagons). It's the knock on effect from the eviction and the uncertainty.
     
  2. John Palmer

    John Palmer New Member

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    I am confident that when the Somerset & Dorset Railway Trust's Board comes to consider what is to be done about 53808's overhaul and its employment thereafter it will fully take into account the trustworthiness of those to whom such overhaul and the locomotive's subsequent operation might be entrusted. I dare say the Board will also pay due attention to preferences expressed by Trust members in this respect. Speaking as one of those members, and having regard to the way in which it has treated the S&DRT over the course of the last twelve months, I do not view the present management of the WSR plc as an appropriate candidate for the award of a further agreement for the locomotive's use. Accordingly I would deprecate any such award.
     
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  3. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    That may well be a good way of letting the WSR off the hook as regards the up coming overhaul. As things stand, as I understand it, the WSR are obliged to overhaul the loco in due course, always asuming that they are in a financial position to do so. But the quality of that overhaul may depend on subsequent plans for the loco. There will be far more incentive to do a "quality job" if the loco is to stay on the railway rather than go elsewhere once the overhaul is finished. But if the S&DRT elect to send it somewhere else for overhaul it could be that the WSR will feel able to walk away from their previous obligation towards the loco. However the Trust Board strike me as being very level headed about the realities of the world they find themselves in and will consider carefully the options open to them with regard to the locos future. I believe that a return to Somerset for overhaul is still an option, but as so much can happen between now and then, lets not pre judge what may happen in that time. I for one have every faith in those who manage the engine on behalf of us S&DRT members. I am sure that they will make the right decisions, whatever they may be.

    Peter
     
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  4. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    But.............

    There are a lot of MK1's and they have been of concern to the Regulators for a long time both in preservation and on The Big Railway whereas pre MK1's are a very mixed bag in terms of age, construction and weak points. If - for example large numbers of Gresley Teaks had been preserved then the Regulators may well have looked at those in the way they now look at MK1's
     
  5. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Isn’t the ORR’s role more about process than specifics? In other words, do you understand the risks of the stock you are using, and manage those risks (by scheduled inspections, repair etc) as appropriate. That applies as a concept regardless of your specific type of rolling stock.

    If you read the RAIB report into the incident at the South Devon Railway, there were two primary recommendations: that to the SDR specifically was about the governance within its SMS; that to heritage railways in general was about having, and following, appropriate maintenance standards for rolling stock, and in particular “ensuring that the railway’s examination regime will identify the foreseeable deterioration of vehicles before it reaches a stage that may affect safety.”

    Tom
     
  6. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    That is the way things are regulated these days. Instead of prescribing procedures, the regulators require companies to ensure they have appropriate and safe systems in place, and be able to demonstrate through a management system that they are following those systems. There is however I believe an element of "this is what company X do, can you prove that your system is as safe as or better than their system?"
     
  7. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    That sounds awfully close to saying an advantage of having pre-nationalisarion stock is that ORR don't know what they're looking at so you can get away with lower standards! ;)
     
  8. 21B

    21B Part of the furniture

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    The reason regulators are concerned about mk1s is that they have reasonable grounds to suspect that many operators have not undertaken sufficiently invasive inspections to assure themselves of the true condition of these now quote vintage carriages. Heritage railways have sweated assets that they acquired many years ago, and in many case not undertaken significant overhauls on these vehicles. It is a testament to the soundness of the design that this has been possible. What is happen now though is that these 60 odd year old vehicles have no residual life left unless they have been worked on. Also some earlier overhauls were little more than filler and paint failing to address underlying issues. If Maunsell or Bullied or collet coaches had survived in similar numbers we would see the same concerns. It isnt in my view a problem exactly, simply that investment is required and the regulators are drawing that to the attention of the industry.

    Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Wenlock

    Wenlock Well-Known Member Friend

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    Certainly all stock needs regular exams which check on the structure as well as the running gear and external surfaces.

    Some may have been lulled into a false sense of security by the relatively low age of MK 1 stock.
    It is not unusual for an eighteen month exam to reveal that a vehicle requires far more extensive repair than previously foreseen. Removing some panelling to access an area of suspected concern may reveal a need for a complete strip back to the metalwork. Either scenario would require the vehicle concerned to leapfrog its way up the rebuild queue.
    Any railway which doesn't have a planned programme of examinations and repairs, but just reacts to problems when found is storing up problems for their future.
     
  10. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    I suspect that many 'Pre MK1' vehicles have had much more restoration work done on them so much of what matters has been worked on more intensively than MK1's bought in working order from BR & put straight into service - sometimes in BR livery in the 80's and run ever since
     
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  11. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    The corollary to this is that pre-nationalisation rolling stock is highly likely to have been in a condition on being acquired where an extensive overhaul was required before the carriage could be used, whereas the Mk 1's could be pressed into service with little more than a repaint and a clean-up.
    Edit, pipped by johnofwessex
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
  12. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Nor would I be surprised. A lot could change at the WSR between now and then. However, it would highlight the complete pointlessness of the Plc ever writing down the provision in the accounts or ever saying that they would renege on the agreement to overhaul.
     
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  13. LC2

    LC2 Member

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    Webcam shot from this afternoon
    upload_2020-12-31_13-36-58.png
     
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  14. LC2

    LC2 Member

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    And a couple more from the webcam:
    upload_2020-12-31_14-26-8.png
    upload_2020-12-31_14-26-32.png
     
  15. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

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    It's all going to depend on how tightly the hire agreement is written. If the WSR is legally committed to doing the overhaul then they must - or pay for it to be done elsewhere. As far as the quality of the works is concerned I'd suggest it doesn't matter if the loco is to stay at the WSR or go elsewhere, the job has to be done properly - as Llangollen engineering works found out to it's cost, which has put the whole of that company in peril.
     
  16. ruddingtonrsh56

    ruddingtonrsh56 Member

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    The difference between the WSR and Llangollen Engineering may be that, to my knowledge, the WSR has never advertised itself as a business to overhaul locomotives for external organisations like Llangollen Engineering. Doing what may be considered a sub-standard job on one loco might result in bad rep (which the line is no stranger to, as the length of this thread testifies), but I don't think it would put the business in jeopardy in the same way, as it's not their entire raison d'etre. That's not to say that it wouldn't be frowned upon by many (myself included), but one could argue that it would not be the most catastrophic thing...
     
  17. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Of course good quality contract work as with, e.g., the E.S.R. would enhance a reputation
     
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  18. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    That surely is a typically simplistic view of the nature of these agreements. In this case it appears to be a ten year use and then overhaul agreement. But a lot can happen over a ten year period as has happened here. As I understand it the WSR gave notice that, when the time comes, they may not be in a financial position to honor the overhaul agreement. Natrually this caused alarm bells to ring with the engines owners but it appears to have been an honest assessment of the situation at the time (early 2019 if I remember correctly). Now things have changed dramatically since then, quite possibly not for the better as far as the loco is concerned. This just shows the perils of decade long agreements - they may be entered on in good faith but external circumstances can and do change.

    Now we would want all loco overhauls to be done properly - the problem here is that we are talking about steam locomotives, so how do you define "properly". Even in the old days locos frequently had to return to shops after overhaul because of some defect or other had arisen. Now we are overhauling equipment long passed its life expectancy and without the resources of Eastleigh or Crewe. In this case I have seen a cost of about £250,000 for the 7Fs overhaul. I doubt that that was a realistic estimate even ten years ago. I don't think it will cover the cost of the boiler overhaul this time round, let alone the complete loco, which will have run a decent preservation mileage. Easy to find fault when things don't go according to plan but you have to understand that there are risks in the plan in the first place.

    Peter
     
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  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Isn't the standard for loco overhaul MT276?
     
  20. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    Unfortunately it is more nuanced than that.

    When you strip the loco down, you look at everything and decide whether each part needs scrapping and replacing with new; repairing or can be reused as is. But there are inevitably judgement calls - components that could be reused as is, and would still be compliant with your documented standards, but might not last ten years of use; or else could be replaced with new.

    Suppose for example you look at tyre thickness and, based on your knowledge of normal wear patterns, you reckon they have five years life left. What do you do? If you scrap them there and then, you throw away five years use from an expensive component. But if you keep them on, you know five years down the track they will require replacement, and doing so will be more expensive at that point, since it will require a lot of work (lifting the loco off its wheels, and then subsequent reassembly) and probably months out of traffic while it is all done. Or else you might set usage limits so you get ten years but at half the normal annual mileage, or other combination of planned mileage and years in traffic. (I could point to at least one large 4-6-0 with a decent condition boiler, with four years left on its ticket, that is now being used on an "as required" standby basis for precisely that reason).

    There is no right or wrong answer to that dilemma, but just to show that it exists. There isn't some magical standard where you can say that all locos meet that same standard after overhaul. (It also goes to show that the nominal "ten yearly" ticket is just that: nominal. Mileage is equally important).

    Tom
     

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