Fictitious liveries

9466 in GWR Green is incorrect too.

 

RSH 6947/1938 No.39 carried Great Central Passenger Livery at the GCR. Looked quite good on her too.

 

I'd have said the lack of side valancing for an LNER A4 was the most obvious error.

What about 60163 in ANY pre 2008 livery 8-[

 

Would that be inauthentic since it is a new build?

 

69023 can only legitamately carry BR black I guess - the livery it has always carried in preservation is that of the York or Newcastle station pilots which 69023 wasn't. Still it isn't neccasarily an 'innacurate' livery as I know all efforts are being made to replicate the livery as it was on the pilots and I know that NELPG members were ballotted on the choice.

 

Wasnt the livery 30053 wore whilst in the USA a mock up LSWR one?

http://www.swanagerailway.co.uk/apmw/30 ... pmw002.jpg

And does 69621 in GER BR black count? 8-[

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3145/296 ... dc4d_b.jpg

Any loco repainted for Thomas events?

 

I was talking to another enthusiast yesterday about the same thing, people/groups/companys complaing about the colour an engine has been painted.
Does it matter what colour they are turned out in as long as they run?

As far as I am concerned any engine could be painted sky blue with pink dots as long as it is a steam engine and is still running.

Anyone who wants a preserved engine to be painted the same colour in preservation as it was in its working life would need to take a sample of the oringinal colour and have it put under a spectrometer to produce the true wave length then have the colour matched, bearing mind that most of the paint made for the big four and B.R. included Arsenic, lead and Linseed oil aswell as the pigment.
I cannot see that a true colour being reproduced at a reasonable cost.
There are companies who can do this but at a substantial cost.

 

The valances were removed during the WW2 so 4498 could carry LNER livery but as the double chimney wasn't fitted until c1957 BR green is the livery she should carry but she looks nice in BR blue
and that's good enough for me.

 

It does matter. I have a DVD here about the Stanier pacifics; mostly it's good but with inaccuracies. It states that the later pacifics had their wheel size increased from 6'9" of the earlier engines to 7'3". So now there are people out there believing that Sir William built engines with 7'3" wheels. I have books and magazine articles with similar, often stupid, errors, which are then passed on and become established 'facts', to be repeated by the next author.

History is what people believe, and that is what people see. Books, films etc. are powerful sources of belief, but cannot compare with seeing a hundred tons of steel, because that is the real thing there in front of them, so it must be right. If that is inaccurate, that still becomes accepted fact, and the debate that has gone on here about the S&D 2-8-0s running in blue is a mere example; because 53808 is so adorned, they MUST have painted that colour originally. Except that they weren't.

We in preservation are, in a very real sense, shaping history, not only of the present day but also of the past, and we have a duty to get it right. It costs little more to paint an item in a correct scheme than to paint it "sky blue with pink dots", so what exactly is the point. Does "sky blue with pink dots" really look beter, or add anything to an engine?

I recall someone on here, when discussing an engine, asking, "Would it steam any better in the correct livery?" Does it steam any better in a wrong one?

 

I thought that second picture had been taken at Swithland last Saturday!! The Gestapo were well and truly out in force!!

 

You raise some interesting points but on the other hand a loco's history doesn't end with withdrawal from service. Its life in preservation is also part of its history. Historically locos changed livery with change of ownership - i.e. pre grouping > Big Four > BR - and sometimes in between so it is perfectly valid for the next new owners - e.g. heritage railway - to paint it whatever colour they like, the KWVR "corporate livery" of the line's early years was a valid experiment IMHO. I suppose it depends on if the owners are attempting to depict the loco as it was in the past - in which case the livery should be as authentic as possible - or if they are simply recreating an impression of how it was - in which case maybe some artistic license is OK. After all if the S&D 2-8-0 on the WSR wasn't painted Prussian Blue how else could this livery be displayed on a working loco. I think it would be a shame if the older liveries were not diplayed simply because the locos that carried them no longer exist.

 

At least the Ivatt suited her corporate livery much better than flipping the USA tank 72 in what can be described as caramac and sick colours

 

This is very true and makes absolute accuracy very difficult to achieve, virtually impossible in the case of a working loco. It will have modifications made during its BR and previous life, and further modifications to meet later current legislation and, simply, operational ease on a volunteer-run line. These become operational necessities or desirables: they either happen or the engine becomes a static exhibit.

Most of these modifications are small and not easily seen, others more so. Major modifications might mean a loco can legitimaely carry only a later - say BR - livery; Royal Scot 6100 being a case in point, and then, yes, there is a compromise to be reached between displaying a condition which is wrong for that engine, but would otherwise not be seen. The pros and cons then need to be considered, but a fictitious livery needs to be justified. It is not 'preservation' as such, and you simply cannot 'restore' an artifact to a condition in which it never previously appeared.

The old railway companies and BR did indeed modifiy their stocks to suit their needs, but they were in a different business: the locos, etc. were a means to an end and were, ultimately, expendible, to be replaced by new when life expired. We are in a different business whereby these engine ARE the business in their own rights, so different rules apply.The fact that BR once painted a number of Black Fives in pretty colours is not justification for private owners to do the same, as happened in the late sixties. "Because it looks nice," isn't a valid argument.

 

You tend to find that the number of people prepared to complain about liveries (fictitious or otherwise) is inversely proportional to the number of people prepared to sand and paint and sand and paint and paint and fill and sand and paint...

Power to the paintbrush I say! I rather liked the red KWVR Ivatt, it did run on the main line in that condition to Shildon so surely it becomes a valid livery..?

...and retire to a safe distance

 

There again, it could be argued that the NRM has most of its items in incorrect liveries...
How many locomotives have their original boilers/frames /wheels/tenders (eg Scotsman, 1000, Hardwicke), yet they are displayed in liveries which are wrong for the period of rebuild.
Likewise the ex LMS Class 502 is in a livery that doesn't match the BR refurbished interior.
How many wagons are there which are in totally original condition?

As has already been said, who cares if the livery is fictitious, as long as the item is restored and working or even looked after. So many museums have stuffed away artefacts that are now virtually beyond salvage: Merseyside Museum has 'Cecil Raikes' stored rusting away. The NRM has the 502 rotting at Kineton, and most railways have a siding full of rotting artefacts (often ex departmental coaching stock) that would all benefit from a bit of TLC and a coat of paint.

Instead of moaning about the discrepancies, people should get out and do something about it.
Even if it is only getting hands dirty for one day a month, or helping fund the painting of a wagon or building, or even writing a 'concerned about the state of..' letter to the museums that have let artefacts decay, then every little helps :smt024 .

 

46521 in green

 

How then does one explain away the history of a locomotive based on livery and authenticity alone? Some locomotives have a very complicated and complex history, how do you expect the general public to understand that? Further, if you paint a locomotive in BR colours (that it genuinely carried) then how do you stop the public from thinking that it only ever carried BR colours?

For me I think the principal of authenticity is fine but the practise is much harder. I don't mind seeing what colours are applied to steam locomotive, I just enjoy seeing them work. I think you can take trivial issues such as paint too seriously sometimes

 

How then does one explain away the history of a locomotive based on livery and authenticity alone? Some locomotives have a very complicated and complex history, how do you expect the general public to understand that? Further, if you paint a locomotive in BR colours (that it genuinely carried) then how do you stop the public from thinking that it only ever carried BR colours?

For me I think the principal of authenticity is fine but the practise is much harder. I don't mind seeing what colours are applied to steam locomotive, I just enjoy seeing them work. I think you can take trivial issues such as paint too seriously sometimes[/quote:vk1ydfsb]

My friend there is nothing like a livery debate to give you your next heart attack.

On another site some months ago I put it to the experts what livery would be most appropriate for a SECR PMV of 1922 vintage. I actually got some sensible answers ranging from SECR brown and maroon up to B R green of even freightliner green.
Late on a Saturday night I replied with my thanks and with my usual warped sense of humour suggested these would never do and only B.R corporate blue with the large arrow fitted the bill forgetting to add a smiley as I was knackered from a days volunteering.

I got up Sunday morning and swtched on my computer. Staring back at me were 18 E-Mails of abuse on this subject including 2 that wanted to cut my balls off.

So you see this is a very serious subject. \/ \/ \/

Best regards
Chris Willis