If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Bridge that Gap: Great Central Railway News

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Gav106, May 8, 2010.

  1. class8mikado

    class8mikado Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jun 1, 2009
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes Received:
    1,438
    Occupation:
    Print Estimator/ Repository of Useless Informatio.
    Location:
    Bingley W.Yorks.
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And the fact that the Government has curtailed the availability of the most suitable types by banning them.
     
    Wenlock likes this.
  2. Great Western

    Great Western Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    174
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    As is not ensuring key infrastructure which allows said commercial freight to run....
     
  3. Great Western

    Great Western Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    174
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There has to be a will on both sides of the gap to merge, or even work together. I seems the primary goal of the South is to gain access to the National network, it seems there’s even less “big family” statements than before, there was a reason why the North set up their site all those years ago vice joining the South.
     
    jnc likes this.
  4. Great Western

    Great Western Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    174
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    When has that ever stopped people kicking up a fuss, and getting the ear of a local councillor or MP who is looking for re-election?
     
    jnc likes this.
  5. Great Western

    Great Western Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    174
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    There we have a prime example of why two groups can’t merge fully, and successfully. You define a comment as daft, which someone else sees as a genuine concern/question.
     
  6. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    2,696
    Likes Received:
    5,500
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I believe the GCR(N) was set up because the Ex MoD site at Ruddington became available. As that is about 10 miles and not rail connected to Loughborough, it made sense to have a separate organisation. There is a lot more detail about this in the new Reunification book.
     
    The Dainton Banker likes this.
  7. Great Western

    Great Western Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    174
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    How long ago was that? I’m just wondering how long they’ve had to achieve the set up they have.
     
  8. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    I described your comment as daft, because it is daft. You are not describing a merger, you are saying the south should cherry-pick the commercially lucrative bits (with half of the track mileage and all but one of the stations on it, by the way, as well as the main line connection), which would leave the north with essentially a 2 mile out-and-back siding. This, very obviously, is not what the guys up there have been working towards for the last 30 years, even allowing for the doldrums that they find themselves in at the present moment.

    It should be blindingly obvious that the northern group are going to say it's "all or nothing", i.e. you want the main line connection, you need to invest in the other bits like better station facilities, signalling, locos, rolling stock and so on. Otherwise, what's in it for them? I do agree that there is a lot to do on the northern section, but chopping it off half-way up is not the way to achieve it!

    While we're at it:

    Clearly, bridges need to be regularly inspected and sometimes the inspector is going to find nasties. Only this year the GCR (south bit) has had to replace a bridge between Loughborough and Quorn which itself had a 10mph speed restriction on it for a year or two beforehand; I don't see you criticising them for allowing exactly the same kind of deterioration on that bridge which, by the way, they have been responsible for maintaining for the last 44 years. It's obvious to everyone that the A60 bridge was already known to be in a poor state (hence why it was included in the 'gap' project) but equally it's disingenuous to suggest that the GCRN was somehow standing back "allowing" it to fall apart. Clearly they weren't expecting a "stop traffic" order to be slapped on it and I'm sure they are working flat out on a solution.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2020
    jnc likes this.
  9. Great Western

    Great Western Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    174
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer

    It’s not cherry picking, it’s a liability if anything probably something the railway had to take on as part of the lease.

    The commercial freight traffic needs the bottom of the line including the Mainline connection, GCR south have / would have no choice in the matter.
     
  10. pmh_74

    pmh_74 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2009
    Messages:
    2,217
    Likes Received:
    1,456
    You haven't read that properly. That T&WAO covers from the Nottingham Transport Heritage Centre to the junction at 50 steps bridge, and south from there on the GC Main Line as far as just short of the current northern limit of commercial freight operations. Also whilst there is a clause that the northern company *may* grant a lease to the southern company, there doesn't seem to be any obligation to do so nor any mention of a reciprocal agreement.

    The bit from there down to the main line connection at Loughborough has a separate T&WAO: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2000/2585/contents/made

    I don't see any similar provision in there for a lease to the 1976 company; there is talk that it can be leased to anyone with government approval, but that looks like a standard clause.
    Curiously, this T&WAO authorises the junction near the 'gap' and construction of railway as far as just short of the MML bridge*. [*I never knew this!]

    The 'gap' over the MML bridge to a point 44m south of there has no T&WAO or equivalent in place at the present time (what has been built, has been done only on the basis of planning permission).

    The preserved bit south of the 'gap' is covered by two separate Light Railway Orders (these predate the T&WAO process):
    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1978/471/contents/made
    This covers from 44m south of the MML bridge** (somewhere near the refuse tip access road) to the middle of the former Belgrave & Birstall platform. [**I never knew this either!]

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1991/1965/contents/made
    This covers the extra bit from the middle of the former Belgrave & Birstall platform to the end of the line at Leicester North.
     
    sonicboom, jnc and huochemi like this.
  11. Great Western

    Great Western Member

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2009
    Messages:
    327
    Likes Received:
    174
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    You can just see a WSR MK2 kicking off,
     
  12. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    As a seasoned WSR spectator I think there's a long way to go before you get to that stage, the WSR's problems in part stem back many decades. But there's certainly potential for it to get messy and uncivil.

    I think as far as continuing support for the bridge, if I wanted to see trains between the north and south I wouldn't let the current management view stop me donating. I'd make lots of noise persuading them of the merits beyond the mainline connection, but ultimately, everyone needs the connection reinstated whatever your aim is, so I'd carry on donating towards that. You can't have an argument over whether to run connected services or not if you don't have a bridge in the first place.

    Just an outsider's view, and we know how well they go down in Somerset!...
     
  13. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,065
    Likes Received:
    20,773
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    At least when the main line connection is established and trains can run through to Loughborough you will at least have a trackbed that should be fit for purpose for visiting main line engines. This is unlike the WSR that seems to have spread its tentacles into GCR matters and probably needs to retreat back down south-west asap!
     
    pmh_74 and Mark Thompson like this.
  14. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Agree that there are other ways of obtaining the desired effect but all of them involve legal agreements and contracts between the two parties to achieve, leaving the way open for expensive legal disputes and disagreements in the future. A simple amalgamation of the two GCR entities into one (the GCR) without any need to establish who owned, or developed, what does away with the potential for a "North/South divide". Why would anybody object ?
     
    pmh_74 likes this.
  15. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,328
    Likes Received:
    11,666
    Occupation:
    Nosy aren’t you?
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Charnwood Borough Council maybe?
     
  16. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    2,696
    Likes Received:
    5,500
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    It is good to see the Santa Specials are running and it is the "Winter Wonderlights" tomorrow night.
     
  17. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Are you sure about that ? My understanding was that when the opportunity arose to obtain the land and line at Ruddington it was felt, by the GCR, too good to miss but that, given the disconnect from Leicester / Loughborough, it made more sense to establish a separate operation based on Nottingham to maintain and develop the site until such time as the two sections could be joined. Once the "gap" is bridged that object is achieved and there is no more need for two disparate entities.
     
    MellishR and pmh_74 like this.
  18. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Not understood. Why and how ?
     
  19. The Dainton Banker

    The Dainton Banker Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2014
    Messages:
    1,720
    Likes Received:
    3,186
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Over the hills and far away
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I was responding to your statement that handing over traffic would be commercial suicide. Perhaps I misunderstood you but that did not appear to be supportive of a merger.
    Glad we are in agreement on that score.
     
    pmh_74 likes this.
  20. Matt37401

    Matt37401 Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2014
    Messages:
    15,328
    Likes Received:
    11,666
    Occupation:
    Nosy aren’t you?
    Location:
    Nowhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Sorry for not being clear but it’s the council that own the trackbed for the GCR so anything involving the 2 GCR’s they might have a say in what goes on.
     
    The Dainton Banker likes this.

Share This Page