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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    SCC should evict the WSR, give the trackbed to Sustrans and be done with it.
     
  2. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I find it hard to understand why anyone with that attitude is on a railway preservation forum...
     
  3. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Pour encourager les autres presumably.
     
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  4. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    As a demonstration of how an organisation can alienate it's natural supporters.
     
  5. The Green Howards

    The Green Howards Nat Pres stalwart

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    Surprisingly, heritage railways do not have a divine right to exist.
     
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  6. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    Hence the.....”they can” I should of also put if they indeed actually own any.
     
  7. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    There are dozens of well run businesses, which happen to be heritage railways or operate steam locos to enable rides by paying customers.
    The WSR doesn’t sit in any of those brackets at the moment, if you can’t or won’t work together to turn a profit then it’s good bye.

    The whole sector is always holding out the begging bowl for XYZ, off the top of my head right now (aside from basic survival funds) the Great Central want several million for the Gap, WSR want at least £250,000 for track repairs, GWR want money for Broadway finishing projects (signalling etc), NYMR a sum for their new carriage shed. Not to mention the loco groups who also compete for funds.

    The pot of available money to give is getting smaller, if you have a donation would you give to a railway or group who publicly setting about destroying themselves, seeking to evict groups who don’t fit plans of the management or faces just don’t fit or the outwardly at least friendly line ?

    I’m the kind of person railways need, late 30s, well paid job with a few quid (hundreds, rather than thousands) to donate per year, even time to get my hands dirty for a good 30 years. Would I even travel on the WSR ? Not a chance, let alone donate money! I live about 45 minutes from the WSR as well.

    The sector needs a high profile casualty to show the rest of the mismanaged lines NO ONE is to it to fail, if that means rails are ripped up on the WSR then so be it.
     
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  8. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I agree with some bits of this, but not others. I agree, the WSR does not appear to be a well run business. Of course I have no interest in donating any money to the WSR as it stands, nor do I wish to go out of my way to contribute to the fares box either. I could conceivably say that the WSR deserves to fail in its current state, but that doesn't mean I wish it to do so. As a preservationist the loss of a complete preserved GWR branchline would be dreadful, and I have no desire to see that come to pass, no matter how much they would have brought it upon themselves if it were to do so.
     
  9. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    On reflection, I think I have to step back from my previous stance of wishing failure. That was strong - the fact remains the railway (when running in full) does bring into the local economy many millions of pounds, no doubt also helps local small business with catering orders etc. So on that basis I do hope the railway does dig itself out of the hole it’s currently digging to the southern hemisphere, but I must make clear I wish survival only to ensure the local economy isn’t further damaged by a closure of the line, not because of any special feeling for the line itself.
     
  10. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    I wouldn't go as far as saying A railway needs to fold to prove a point, and most of us do not want to see the WSR fail, But, the warning signs can only be ignored for so long, before something does happen, The council must be watching its Tennant tear its self apart, with alarm, OK the land rent isn't an substantial amount to the coffers of the council, but the transport and leisure business must contribute to the financial standing of the area, but what could they do as land owner ? They don't have anyone they could appoint to guide the railway, and if they were to offer, no doubt the PLC would be screaming Interference, the council could side with another , and use their combined shareholding,, but the PLC'S pet poodle would use it's to block it, unless the various trusts and associations, trustee boards were to change in the short term, all anyone can do is to watch the line go stumbling from crisis to crisis, until enough shareholders say, enough is enough, but will that day ever come?
     
  11. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    Call me simple minded (it would be true!)....isn’t it possible to “simply” merge every aspect of the railway into one organisation?

    Funds then going into “the WSR” to be used as required, not donated to ABCD who then only use the money for their own ends ?
    Why does a railway need a PLC, Trust, Association, Supporting charities etc, it just muddies the water.
     
  12. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    The WSRA owns a big chunk at Norton Fitzwarren (it holds the triangle). I have this vague memory that the PLC owns a small strip or so somewhere, but my memory might be wrong on that.

    Noel
     
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  13. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    I seem to recall the triangle is more or less useless to anything other than its current activity?
    Flood plain, and overhead national grid pylons spring to mind ?
     
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  14. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Most railways find the need for at least 2 separate organisations for a number of reasons. A heritage railway setup must cover some basic functions. 1) A body to operate trains, that holds the safety certificate and is accountable to the ORR. A body to sell things and do commercial stuff. I can't think of any examples where this isn't the same body that operates the trains. 3) A charitable Trust. This is the best vehicle to get grants donated to, gift aid on donations, and other tax advantages, and is also the best vehicle to own assets to protect against insolvency. 4) A membership organisation.

    In some instances, usually the smaller operations, it is possible for one body to fulfil all of those functions. But an organisation having charitable status also gives it certain restrictions, so it often makes sense to split that off from the commercial side of things.

    In this scenario, usually the charity would also fulfil the function of the membership organisation. The charitable company, if undertaking fundraising, would pass the money over to the operating company in the form of grants for specific projects which fulfil the support organisation's charitable objectives. In recent years, those objectives need to be carefully selected to allow everything to run smoothly. The charitable organisation might own the assets, so if the operating company went bust, the bank would swoop in and start scrapping steam engines for the scrap metal value. It might also have a controlling interest in the operating company, which puts them in charge of setting broad policy, and thus each member of the railway only has one vote, and you can't change the strategic direction of the railway by simply buying more votes to increase your shareholding.

    The Bluebell decided that having the charity and membership organisation being the same was still too restrictive, so they have 3 organisations, a membership one, a charity, and an operating company. This allows the membership organisation to give funds to the operating company a lot more freely than if it were bound by charity law, but still gives them access to grant funding, gift aid and asset protection.

    The WSR doesn't properly fit into any of these categories.
     
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  15. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Recent posts suggest that there is not a problem but several problems:
    incompetent management (that might seem a strong assertion but their recent record speaks for itself);
    irreconcilable personality clashes;
    confusing claims about the accounts, but at best a modest operating surplus even in normal times, entirely inadquate to pay for the backlog of maintenance of the infrastructure and the contracted repair of a certain loco, plus probably now interest on loans;
    as Tom has pointed out, too few individual donors topping up the funds;
    potential individual donors discouraged by the fighting;
    as Andy has pointed out, a structure that discourages corporate donors;
    even where there is some degree of consensus, that the railway should be restructured along the Bailey lines, there is serious disagreement about the process and the timescale.

    Quite!
     
  16. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    As I don't have a membership or involvement that entitles me to receive information about the WSR and its woes, I'm not expecting to find out anything helpful on here in particular. However, if I were a stakeholder in the Railway, however you want to describe that, then I would be expecting information and not through the public website that I see is currently showing availability for Santa Expresses this coming weekend. (By the way I also notice that the weekend just gone was advertising Santa Expresses as well even though none were running.:rolleyes:)

    As it stands, therefore, everything is fine on the WSR. so what exactly is everyone worrying about? Or are we in a Debenhams scenario?
     
  17. Great Western

    Great Western Member

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    “Everything is fine, the sun is shining and the future is wonderful. Be a good railway preservation community and keep donating without question” source WSR.
     
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  18. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    It would be a shame if the branchline was lost (it isn't quite complete - for me complete would be Taunton-Minehead) but railway heritage is littered with losses of locomotives, rolling stock and lines that didn't make it.

    I don't want it to cease to exist anymore than I want to see a pre-grouping carriage rot away or the sole survivor of a class cut up. But there are plenty of branchlines to the sea - Swanage, PDSR, and GWR branchlines - SDR, SVR, or even important secondary lines such as the GWSR. If the WSR were a heritage object it would be the heavily self-vandalised MK1 sitting at the end of siding where every compartment has been the scene of a dirty protest.

    Sometimes, somethings can't be saved and you have to shrug your shoulders and invest your time and effort in something more worthwhile.

    The reality is this - I realised today that I need a calendar for next year. I went online bought one from the S&DRT. I have no intention of giving any money to the WSR under the current management or with the way many people involved with the line treat those who disagree with them.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2020
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  19. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Firstly, money: the government grant should go a long way towards clearing up the maintenance backlog, if, and it's still a fairly big if, it can all be done by the end of March. However, in the future, the WSR still has the problem of insufficient income, the same problem that has dogged it since 2007 or so. There is no doubt, that, the government grant excepted, the rsponse to the WSR's various appeals, including their COVID one, has been markedly less than many of the lines against which it compares itself. Where's 2021's windfall going to come from?
    Secondly, strategy: If the last 13 years have shown us anything, it has been that the WSR cannot survive continuing the way it has been doing, relying on the farebox and small donations. However, far from cutting the operating costs, the current management appear to be aiming to move towards a model which is far more like, say, a bus company than a heritage railway company, with few or no volunteers, funded almost entirely from its trading activities and thus answerable only to its shareholders. The Bailey plan, as currently envisaged, is not going to make the slightest difference to this.
    Of course there may be more rabbits waiting to be pulled out of the hat; I worked for years for a company that seemed almost permanently on the verge of bankruptcy. It folded in the end, but lasted much longer than anyone would have imagined, burning its way through investors' cash.
     
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  20. huochemi

    huochemi Part of the furniture

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    As a technical point, "a charitable trust" (and I assume you mean by this an incorporated entity that is a charity), is not ipso facto bankruptcy remote, and typically the entities used in railway preservation do not appear to be trusts in the usual meaning of the word even though they have that name in their title (i.e. they do not hold assets in trust for anyone else). They are capable of suing and being sued as a lawyer would put it and their assets are available to meet claims. The bankruptcy remoteness, if any, arises from trying to avoid activities which would potentially give rise to claims. Having said that, it is possible that merely owning an asset that is capable of injuring someone may give rise to a risk of being sued, even if they are not the operator, but hopefully the insurance coughs up before this is explored. (Lessors of aircraft for instance are covered by the airline's insurance). It seems to me that if you really want to go down the bankruptcy remoteness route, you should put all major assets in separate companies owned by the charitable entity so a claim against one does not have any impact on any other e.g. each loco in a separate company. Which is what property companies do with large properties, shipping companies do with ships etc. ("You want me to pay for cladding replacement? Sure go ahead and sue the SPV."). Ironically the seeking of this protection against claims, or opco/propco structure, also puts one in the same league as red in tooth and claw entrepreneurs, where if the operating business fails, they can put two fingers up at the Revenue and small business creditors and re-open the next day in the same premises with a different company (they also like tax advantages!).;)
     
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