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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Does the WSR have any volunteers working on carriages at all apart from the WSSRT, or is it all paid staff?
     
  2. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

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    And the Ffestiniog Heritage Group would no doubt disagree with you, or what about the IOWSR or Bluebell or NNR and the role of the M&GN? All with elite restorations of projects that would often be looked at as bottom of the pile.

    The form doesn't matter whether it is inside or outside, what matters is that there is support for the project. Being a stand alone charity doesn't guarantee that.

    What really gets support for projects is not whether you are a separate charity or part of a bigger charity but whether you get things done. Success breeds success. If I am going to pony up cash for a project I am going to have a lot more faith in the ability of the NNR, FR, IOWSR or Bluebell to deliver than I would in the WSSRT as it stands at the moment. And in turn that is why projects on those lines are going to be better resourced and completed faster, meaning more success to attract more donations.
     
  3. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Tom, Without checking my fact so see if I am right, I think that there is a fundamental difference between the Bluebell and the WSR (Only one? I hear people cry :)) That is the fact that the BB acquired most of their carriages when they were not absolute wrecks and they were acquired by the railway to be an operational part of it. The WSR has a sufficient number of operational carriages and doesn't need any of the WSSRT ones. It is similar to the NYMR, which has enough Mk.1's to satisfy its operational requirements in this respect. The LNER coaches are nice to have but not needed so would probably never have been restored by the Railway Trust, or even acquired, hence the formation of the LNERCA.
     
  4. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    That view of prioritisation also says something about the priorities of the NYMR for its carriage fleet. As some other railways demonstrate, it is also possible to operate core services using pre nationalisation rolling stock.

    There is no reason why the WSR should or should not follow any particular pattern.


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  5. RailWest

    RailWest Part of the furniture

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    I suppose I could/should offer the Auto 169 group as a good example of what can be achieved by a small group of dedicated enthusiasts against the odds :)
    Yes, progress has been slow, but there has always been progress and it will continue until the coach is running. Of course, one problem along the way has been the somewhat random/haphazard arrangements for covered work space, leaving the coach at the mercy of being put out in the cold and wet from time to time :-(
     
  6. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    I don't disagree. A lot of whether any project succeeds or not is going to be down to those individuals who drive it forward. Get the right people at the helm and you are a long way towards a successful conclusion but there is no hard and fast rule that will guarantee success. The Festiniog coaches existed on the railway, as did those on the NNR and it needed the right people to say we must do something about them. Some of the IOWSR's coaches were part of its original start-up and when it needed more it had to restore. Need is the driver in this case.
     
  7. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Well, with my well known antipathy to tatty Mk.1s you might be surprised to hear me defend the WSR but solely because they are no worse than the great majority of places. Where they can be criticised is that they have been going for a hell of a long time but have made extremely modest progress with more interesting rolling stock. Again no worse than lots of places.

    In case there are those who will observe that "non-enthusiasts don't notice" I can only reply "they most certainly do." Just this week I overheard a young woman who caught a glimpse of a 1911 carriage door open to display it's droplight, leather strap and grained woodwork. "Look, there's a real old carriage door" she said excitedly to her small son.
     
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  8. nick813

    nick813 Well-Known Member Loco Owner

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    Covered accommodation, a fully equipped workshop run with a professional attitude, staff and lots of them. Funding funding and more funding. An enthusiasm to see the job thru from beginning to end. Experienced people to shew the way to go forwrd. Younger people to learn and pass on the skills. Publicity and lots of it. A photographic Archieve showing progression. Dedication. ......I could go on......
     
  9. Paulthehitch

    Paulthehitch Well-Known Member

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    Actually, I understand it was intended t0 bring over some erstwhile electric stock fitted, conveniently, with air brakes. Wiser counsels prevailed and there are now thirteen vehicles ranging in date from 1864 to 1924 available for use. Another one is nearly ready. It has taken fifty years but there we are.
     
  10. Premier.Prairie

    Premier.Prairie New Member

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    Nice to see a little bit of wsr discussion get around to vintage carriages. Yes, there are a few of us trying our hardest to supply some variation over the 'bulk standard' Mk1s which we firmly believe will give added value and interest to the WSR. Everyone is welcome to view progress on Auto169 at the very earliest, covid excepting, opportunity or visit our 'horror of horrors' Facebook page to see what we get up to :)
     
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  11. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    I hate to state the blindingly obvious, but the WSSRT facebook page 'comments' doesn't look good for the new WSSRT board candidates.

    Barrie had the opportunity to apologise (which I suggested he do) but he has muffed it today.

    (Other stuff on here today I could write pages about).

    But I think the Moderators, in their personal capacity, have summed it up pretty well on here today.

    As I have said a few times, transparency is important.

    And Nat Pres should not be hijacked over all this by a particular faction to the extent that if posts go against them they want this thread closed down!
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2020
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  12. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Yes absolutely, always good to see an Auto169 update in my Facebook feed. :)
     
  13. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    I seem to recall mention of a scheme being set up whereby the carriages would be worked on by students from the local technical colleges with the use of their well-equipped workshops, but this was abandoned due to lack of support by senior management. @Andy Norman knows the details.
     
  14. 60044

    60044 Member

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    It seems to be something of a truism that heritage coaches are not well liked by the various "professional" heritage railway managers, who (the NYMR GM has informed me) would much rather use Mk 1 TSOs where they have a choice - the NYMR, GCR, SVR and Bluebell all falling into this category (with the caveat that the SVR GM has changed recently and on the Bluebell its the C & W manager who prefers Mk 1s). In fact, the NYMR uses the LNER carriages available to it because it actually needs them but wants to shift the burden of maintenance to the owners. In the light of this it seems to me that the WSR's heritage coaches are best placed in the care of a charity prepared to raise and allocate funds towards their restoration (and covered accommodation). I would also point out that one of the early drivers behind the WSR's heritage coach project was Robin White, so attempts to paint her as being indifferent to this aspect of the WSSRT's work are probably wildly misplaced. Nor would I classify the WSSRT's track record of custodianship of this fleet as particularly impressive, with just the one vehicle (the most complete of the bunch) only just nearing completion and no start made on any of the others.
     
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  15. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    A complicated factor with coach restoration can be the way that sometimes each project can get very 'personal' in that individuals want to focus exclusively on one particular vehicle and have no interest in helping on another. Someone I know spent literally years on one coach on the Bluebell (that is now in service) and touched nothing else. An example of 'support with strings'.

    When you are trying to maintain a fleet of vehicles you really need a flexible team of people who don't become precious about individual items. Imagine what would happen if boilersmiths started getting choosy over which locomotive they worked on.
     
  16. richards

    richards Part of the furniture

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    But, one could argue that the current "management" have a mandate from the members as well ... and look where are.

    There is a huge job to be done to try to develop some understanding, moderation and cooperation. I haven't heard anything about *how* they are going to do this.

    Saying they have a "mandate" suggests that everyone is going to accept them (which they won't) or that they are going to push through their plans anyway (which sounds remarkably similar to the current situation).
     
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  17. anglo-welsh bluenose

    anglo-welsh bluenose New Member

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    I love being quoted with words twisted and not representative of what I have said. There is also no agenda to shift maintenance into the LNERCA. We are working very well with the LNERCA to make sure the coaches are sustainably looked after and maintained to match the available resources spread across both organisations. I distance myself from this posting.
    Chris Price
    NYMR.


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  18. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Firstly I don’t want to diminish any efforts of the WSSRT’s Membership in what they have done in terms of output, compared with its large sister Charity it has often outshone it recently, however given the bar has been set particularly low by the WSRA in the recent past given its size, it wasn’t that difficult to do so let’s keep it in context.

    It comes down to a set of harsh and sobering mathematical facts. The WSSRT was until recently made up of well under 100 Members, only a few of which turn up to volunteer on a regular basis.
    • The average age of the Trust Members is well advanced, the two Trustees who have just resigned stated their ages as a part of their reasoning for going and those ages are representative of the Trust Members generally.
    • This means the WSSRT if nothing changes in the next 5-10 years would see a very large percentage drop in size to a figure where the future sustainability even with some younger heads coming through on the Model Railway Team would leave it in doubt as a standalone Charity, it would just be too small to sustain even the ‘on costs’ of being an entity and the future rent for the space it takes up.
    • Given at the current rate of restoration the one coach restored has taken maybe 10 years to do (I don’t know exactly it was started before my time) that means given it was the best of the bunch it will take, even if you managed to sustain the current volunteer levels around 100 years to do the rest.
    • Looking at the rate of decay of the Coaches its likely most of them will be beyond saving in the next 10-15 years. This means around 7 of them are already lost to history. If the WSSRT stays the same and is left alone in peace you could say its 8 of them if the Membership drops and is not replaced in equal numbers soon.
    It’s hard to say that, but the maths works out that way. Staying the same and just continuing to do what has been done so far, however good and well-meaning means most of the Coaches could be lost to future generations.

    The HPC Bid contained an activity to tie in Bridgwater & Taunton Colleges, and to bring the large resources that the Colleges have into the Grant Funding picture. For those who wish to please go back to my post #33790 and drop into the equation the resources and needs of the Colleges as well.

    They have a lot of Students coming through on many courses, woodworking, metal working, mechanical engineering amongst them, this need is increasing due to educational changes taking place. They have on site workshops stuffed full of all types of equipment which can produce all manner of items, they have the ability to send students out to the WSR (the HPC bid also paid for their transport go to and from because neither the WSR or the Colleges had budgets for it) and they have a need (indeed a requirement from the DfE) for Students to do real life work both on site and offsite working with WSR People in WSR Workshops.

    That resource acted to increase the viability of the Grant Funding bid because all the Grant Funders when need to do is pay for the materials as the ‘enabler’ to start the whole process of the Colleges & WSR’s existing resources coming together. The three things act as a ‘mutually supportive, force multiplier’ (again their words not mine).

    HPC understood that and wanted to use their money to kick start the relationship, as did two important ‘external sponsors’ who tried to help and were later attacked in public by the PLC for doing so. The Colleges were very, very keen because where else can they go locally and do good work for a charitable non-profit making cause (which also ticks some of their boxes for Community Engagement) on such a large scale which gives their students pride in saying to their kids “I was a part of restoring that carriage” and I was in advanced stages of talking to them about the role out after they supported the bid in writing to HPC.

    That then leaves additional money to pay for materials ongoing which it was planned would easily come through grant funding once the HPC bid highlighted the available opportunity to other grant funders, and indeed I had the next Grant Funder lined up in any case, they just needed to see a start.

    The plans, Power Points, briefing documents, contact details and project details setting all of this out in detail still exist and all three Boards were given them at the time.

    Equally this applies to Wagons which were in fact easier because of the way the likes of The 813 Fund manages its wagons and fund raises already for materials if the host railway provide the manpower.

    Somewhere out of this mess somebody needs to take into account the strategic longer term picture. We all want to see those Coaches saved and restored, the quicker the better. I’m in my mid 50’s I would like to see some done in my lifetime, what I don’t want to see when I’m 70 is the coaches being cut up in the same spot as they are now.

    Any plan does need to include the current people if they want to stay involved, anything the WSR does must include and add to the existing picture, everybody should want to continue to be involved and nobody should be pushed out, I know what that feels like and it’s not nice. That of course needs compromise on all sides.

    If the WSSRT have a better plan great, I’d love to hear about it as a Member. But from what I’ve seen of its current plan of being left alone in peace, what will that future look like in 10 year’s time?

    I know people don’t like change but please all take a deep breath and perhaps do something different rather than just continue to do the same.

    Steps off soap box, again !!!
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2020
  19. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    Also on the SVR, the LNER Carriage Group has transferred all its vehicles to the SVR Charitable Trust and operates as a department of the CT, maintaining its own identity and fundraising with amounts raised held by the CT as reserved funds. The BR/LMS coach group did the same. Even on one railway it's possible to have two models (the GW(SVR)A independent model and the department within the CT) that both work well. Furthermore one can donate or make bequests to the CT restricted to a particular project, such as pre-nationalisation GWR carriages or a particular vehicle. IMO it shouldn't be used as an example either for or against the WSSRT being a separate charity.

    Patrick
     
  20. 60044

    60044 Member

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    In my defence I quote the following extract from a message to me from Chris Price. Items in italics are to either remove an individual's name or by way of explanation. The item in bold is the one of more general interest to this discussion, but I have heard the sane from contacts at the Bluebell and GCR.

    "We have also not said we do not have the resources to look after them, which is a massive distortion of the facts. What we have said is we do not have the resources to look after any more. We have a two road shed and a dozen staff if that changes then fine but as we stand we would simply be lying to say we can. I don't just blame the NYMR I also blame the LNERCA for blindly assuming the railway would look after the carriages they restore. (The LNERCA Chairman) gets it and is trying hard to work with the railway to make sure we manage the carriages we have. (He's negotiating for the LNERCA to be paid to take on the naintenance responsibility for the teak coaches). I actually agree with you the NYMR is not the place for the teaks. in a few years that may change but in the mean time we mustn't kid ourselves we can do things we can't.

    However, and this may hurt, i'm not sure that these coaches would be seen as a asset at most heritage railways. The GMs forum I attend is constantly talking about managing liabilities, (and I can tell you the SVR does not want them). "
     

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