If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

Current and Proposed New-Builds

Discussion in 'Steam Traction' started by aron33, Aug 15, 2017.

  1. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    283
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A usefull/ inexpensive rebuild could be IOM Mannin.
    No cylinder versus loading gauge problems and very cheap to restore to simple if a failure.
    There is space enough for both a bigger low pressure as well as a steam jacketed high pressure.
    Not very far from Zillertalbahn 3 Tirol in dimensions and still doing usefull work.

    https://www.zillertalbahn.at/data.cfm?vpath=technische-details-excel/lok-3
     
  2. Hermod

    Hermod Member

    Joined:
    May 6, 2017
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    283
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Klitmoeller,Denmark
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The german system for evaluation of good and not so good steam engineering was fast acting.

    The G12 2-10-0 three cylinder with conjugation was built in great haste 1916 in 1100 examples and was based on a Henschel design for Turkey.
    The P10 2-8-2 was discussed in commities and designed in1920 21,that is five years after theG12.
    Everybody wanted two outside cylinders only but with state of art short connecting rods to second coupled axle this could give wheel lifting in some situations.
    Therefore three and no conjugation as expirience from G12 was not catastrophal but not good either.
    In England Holcroft fooled around with conjugations for three and even fourcylinder locomotives.
    Gresley copied and stuck to it until his demise.
    That is five years for Germany versus at 25 for England.

    Garbe wanted his P8 to be seen as express locomotive and everybody else knew it was not as the german civils had very good understanding of the forces from steam locomotives at speed.
    Urie did the ugly deed by putting an awfull lot of balance in the drivers.This is good for crew and train but less so for track.May have spoiled the day for some at Sevenoaks.
    Garbe then wanted to up the driver diameters to seven feet or so (the Urie way) and stick to two cylinders but the Minister said no way.
    As compromise in 1909 they built some S10 (like Claugthons from 1913) .
    In 1913 they knew that they had failed and made no further four cylinder simples but tried desperately to cover up with some three-cylinder S10.2 until 1916.
    England made fourcylinder simples until 1950 I think.
    The winner in relatively flat Prussia was the two variants of divided drive ,four cylinder compounds S10.1

    4 to 5 years for getting wiser in Germany versus 40 in England where it was not considered a blind alley.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
    bluetrain likes this.
  3. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    A feature of the German railway companies was that the Bavarian, the Baden, the Saxon and the Wurttemberg State all developed their own series of compound locomotive designs, and these companies faced very different terrain to that faced by the Prussian system. The work of J. A. Maffei in producing locomotives for the Bavarian Railway is probably the best remembered, Anton Hammel was responsible for the thinking behind these designs. Three basic series of Pacifics were produced two for the Baden but it is the Bavarian series which is best remembered and these were the S3/6 and the Reichsbahn had to order another batch of them because of the difficulties that were found in designing a simple expansion Pacific to meet the eighteen ton axle load requirement. The Maffei/Bavarian type was found to be easily capable of providing all the power that was required and they lasted well with substantial numbers of them surviving until the elimination of steam power in Germany was practically complete. If you have seen a picture of the "Rheingold" express you have probably seen a S3/6.

    It is a pity that so few enthusiasts are aware of the locomotives designed prior to the Reichsbahn and the types that they do remember are from the 50s, 60s and 70s. Strange obsession with the end of things. Though if you do remember the 1950s you might just remember the Wurttemberg compound 2-12-0s which dated back to 1917.
     
    Last edited: Oct 5, 2020
    andrewshimmin and bluetrain like this.
  4. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    A proposed new build of the lovely Wurttemberg pacific class C "Die Schöne Württembergerin“ (a compound engine) were launched by the germans for a while ago. Sadly the project failed....

    Knut:)
     
  5. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I`m agree with you bluetrain. :) A very cool looking engine!

    Knut
     
    bluetrain likes this.
  6. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Enthusiasts will certainly be most aware of the loco types that survived until the last days of steam and into preservation. In the case of German steam, that will be the Reichsbahn/ Bundesbahn standard types, plus late Prussian survivors notably the P8 4-6-0 and G8 0-8-0. The Bavarian S3/6 4-6-2 must be by far the best known class from the other Landesbahnen.

    Similar considerations apply of course back home. Today's railfans will know far more about the engines of the London & South Western than those of the Glasgow & South Western, because there is a good range of preserved L&SW locos on view. Whereas the last G&SW loco in main-line service was withdrawn in 1948 and that railway is almost lost from collective memory.

    The older generation of British railway authors wrote quite a bit about the overseas steam scene, particularly Western Europe and the British Empire. I first learnt of the Bavarian 4-cylinder engines from the writings of OS Nock or one of his contemporaries. Although that source of information later dried-up, there is much on the internet (largely available in English) about German steam history, although much less for most other countries. I found ES Cox "World Steam in 20th Century" most useful as a concise overview of steam power across the globe.

    I don't think any of the Wurttemberg Railway engines survived into preservation? I imagine that some German rail enthusiasts will see that as a major gap.

    On the subject of engines that can be described as "Die Schöne", top choice for my fantasy new-build list would be one of the Great Central Railway 4-4-2s (LNER Class C4). Nicknamed "Jersey Lilies" after actress Lily Langtry, who had been a companion of King Edward VII.

    https://railway-photography.smugmug...-Atlantics/Robinson-C4-4-4-2-Jersey/i-XkB8kzN

    One of my books has a photo of a neat-looking 2-cylinder compound 4-4-0 for Norway's old 3ft 6in/1067mm main lines. I think is now in the museum at Hamar. A tiny engine when compared with Dovre Gubben!
     
    jnc and andrewshimmin like this.
  7. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Major gap, eh? Do you perchance have the KWS K [DRG Class59] 2-12-0 in mind? :)
     
    BrightonBaltic likes this.
  8. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,160
    Getting back from the interesting but peripheral discussion of the variety of approaches to compounding in different countries in the heyday of steam, I think this thread should take some account of the RPSI's project to build an NCC Mogul. Here's the latest snippet of news:
    "No.105 (Mogul project): Drilling of main frames nearly complete. Work progressing on attaching parts (horn guides, spring and brake brackets, etc.). Cylinder blocks being sent out for machining. Boiler (for No.105 or spare for No.4) has had inner firebox sides and crown sheet welded, door and tube plates being fitted."
     
  9. 240P15

    240P15 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2017
    Messages:
    1,598
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Norway
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I have not heard about this project before. Thanks for mention it!:) Do you have link please?

    Knut
     
  10. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I had, but hadn't realised it had moved past the "being mooted" (aka WIBN) stage. Even though I'd have preferred a GNRI SG2 or UG (as not a single ex-GNRI 0-6-0 survived), it's still excellent news! :)
     
    240P15 likes this.
  11. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

    Joined:
    Apr 16, 2009
    Messages:
    8,068
    Likes Received:
    5,160
    Not much information seems to be easily available. The page https://www.steamtrainsireland.com/projects still refers to "The manufacture of a spare boiler for locomotive No.4, which may or may not develop into a completely new locomotive" (my emphasis). The bit of news that I quoted was from the latest email to RPSI members. The work now being reported on frames and cylinders confirms that they are building the new locomotive.

    One of the back issues of the RPSI magazine "Five Foot Three" contained a history of the development of the LMS, NCC and BR 2-6-4 tank engines, which did also mention the Moguls. I have a copy on my computer somewhere but just now I can't find it. Maybe someone else can locate that article?

    Edit: http://www.steamtrainsireland.com/FFT/FFT28.pdf (article near the end of that issue).

    Further edit: See also https://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/12414/rpsi-cuts-frames-for-new-build-lms-ncc-w-class-mogul/
     
    Last edited: Oct 7, 2020
    30854, Bluenosejohn and 240P15 like this.
  12. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The frames are cut and are being drilled as mentioned. The cylinders have been cast along with horn blocks and the motion brackets. The horn blocks and motion brackets are in the process of being machined/fitted. I believe some smaller castings have also been produced. The main wheels have been retyred, machined, painted and set aside for the moment. A GNR(I) tender is on site to provide the basis for a tender for the loco. On the boiler front, the front tubeplate is complete, as is the inner dome, the throatplate has been formed and the inner firebox has been formed, welded and NDT tested. As far as major components go, the loco is quite well along the road, but there's still a long way to go!

    Should be a handsome looking and useful loco when complete:
    [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Keith
     
  13. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Well I must admit that it is one of a number of locomotive types that I keep in mind. Major gap? Well I would trade a DRB 50 for one. The OBB kept the 659 class until 1957, but this was too early in the development of the railway heritage story.
     
  14. bluetrain

    bluetrain Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2019
    Messages:
    1,326
    Likes Received:
    1,460
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Wiltshire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The small T5 (Br75.0) 2-6-2 tanks appear to have been the last standard-gauge engines of Württemberg design to stay in service. According to Wikipedia, one was set aside as a museum exhibit in 1963 but scrapped in 1968.

    More generally, Germany has a good stock of preserved steam locos, but mostly of large size, with relatively few small locos preserved. That will partly be because not many of the smaller types survived into the last years of DR/DB steam operation. If Germany had the abundance of standard gauge heritage lines that we enjoy in Britain, they would be awash with 2-10-0s.
     
  15. Legrandanglais

    Legrandanglais New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2011
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    218
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The Ben Alder Group have contacted GCR567 Group to see if the Bogie Wheel pattern could be used for their Bogie Wheels - We had ours cast in July by Trefoil foundry, and I think that they will follow suit. We were going to use the Brighton Atlantic wheel pattern, but damage by other groups contractors to patterns lead to a ban on sharing by the Bluebell Railway. If the pattern is used at Trefoil I can see no objection - elsewhere, probably not.
     
    jnc likes this.
  16. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2017
    Messages:
    12,172
    Likes Received:
    11,493
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Brighton&Hove
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Unfortunate, if understandable. In these days of computerisation, would it perhaps be possible to scan the existing pattern, in order to produce a copy by some means (thinking maybe polystyrene from a printed former)?
     
    BrightonBaltic and 2392 like this.
  17. Flying Phil

    Flying Phil Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2018
    Messages:
    2,696
    Likes Received:
    5,500
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I'm glad to see that there is on-going co-operation between the various New Build groups. It is a gigantic (and expensive) operation to build a new steam engine and such co-operation should - slightly, make the process easier for all parties.
     
    jnc and 240P15 like this.
  18. Legrandanglais

    Legrandanglais New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2011
    Messages:
    170
    Likes Received:
    218
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Leicestershire
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    The polypatterns are usually one per casting - being burned out by the hot metal....Great for one-offs, but there is a drawback - duff casting = cost of another polypattern.
    We looked at this option, 4 wheels cast from a CNC produced pattern from General Patterns Ltd (plus maybe wheels for others) worked out cheaper.
     
    30854 likes this.
  19. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    418
    And higher maintenance costs.

    Plus you need a more skilled workforce. OK if you have one available - in the UK by the time the BR standards were designed that was not and was never going to be the case. Compounds are not necessary as long as there is a cheaper practical alternative. Just as superheaters on a shunting engine are a waste of time.
     
    jnc likes this.
  20. pete2hogs

    pete2hogs Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2007
    Messages:
    721
    Likes Received:
    418
    What has Urie got to do with Sevenoaks? That was a Maunsell designed River.
     

Share This Page