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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

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    "Any sensibly run railway" isn't that the crux of the matter,? its not sensibly ran, it lurches from crisis to crisis, most of it self inflicted, having two opposing charities with equal share holding dilutes holding the operating company to account, when it has one in its camp, and the other wanting to reform the set up, that risks the cosy world the trustees of the steam trust, and PLC directors inhabit , its about nothing more than holding onto their own little bit of empire, its a theme with the west Somerset Railway.
     
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  2. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I am an armchair member of both BRPS and NYMRHRT. While I have my views on the relative strengths and weaknesses of both, I think they both in their different ways provide for an appropriate level of control by the members of the railway that they support. In particular, in their different ways, both set-ups create space and direction for disagreements to be resolved within rather than between organisations, and confer legitimacy on those who hold office within those. In the time that I've belonged to each, neither has been tested to destruction by irreconcilable disagreements, but a look at either will show that there have been (and are) deeply held and passionate differences of view over the priorities they should follow.

    What should matter to all who wish the WSR to survive is that the structures of the railway work to contain the differences that exist, and cease to provide the cover for the personal animosities that fester around the organisations, sometimes in plain sight.
     
  3. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

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    There is an irony here that if you dispense with the small number of 'voices' that either have an agenda, a vested interest or a blinkered view then you end up with a consensus view about what is best from about enough people to be able to run all the key functions of a modest heritage railway.

    It feels as though everyone's moral, financial and physical help needs to be put behind supporting those who are trying to bring things together 'for a brighter future' as they say. That means shutting out the outliers, whomever they are, and focusing on the potential prize to be had.

    All pretty obvious really, I know. It just saddens me that so much is being said on here that arguably achieves nothing.
     
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  4. Lineisclear

    Lineisclear Member

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    I’ve made the point that incorporation has a downside. Many heritage railways started as members preservation societies. They could be run democratically and primarily in the interests of their members. As they grew the need for limited liability became essential. Whether they are companies, incorporated charities, charitable incorporated organisations or community interest companies they all share the imposition on member democracy of supervening directors/Trustees legal duties.
    The fact that they are not democracies run by their members doesn’t mean, if they are sensible and well managed, that the members can be ignored. Heritage railways are not like your average company or charity. They depend on their members’s support both in donations and the vital contribution of volunteering.
    It’s all about balance! One eye on your statutory duties and the other on making sure you keep your members happy and on side. Getting that balance right isn’t easy but it can work very well.
     
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  5. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Well, @Lineisclear agrees with you:
    "The current unedifying spectacle of various interest groups vying for dominance convinces me that there two essential requirements for a viable future for the WSR:
    1) None of the current warring factions should aim to come out on top. The distrust and bitterness is so deep that only a completely new broom is going to have a chance of uniting everyone in a “one railway” approach. The existing players may be instrumental in creating a new structure but they must all be prepared to hand over the baton to those untainted by the past."
    Presumably that goes for the Plc as well, so there's a chance of achieving a little more than nothing.
     
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  6. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Well, different people will have differing responses (and will in any case have to speak for themselves), but I suspect your 'there might be a legal problem here with these nominations' (which does seem to me to be a plausible reading of your "doubts about the legitimacy of the nominations") is rubbing some people a bit the wrong way (especially given that you have previously said something fairly similar about the lease, but in that case wouldn't give any detail about what the issue might be, leaving people rather hanging). Yes, technically those statements were both opinions, but the perception (also an opinion, ironically) can readily be formed that you are trying to throw a fairly heavy token into the scales on one side of a 'hot' topic.

    This contretemps has now been running for several years (although the issues have changed considerably over that time - e.g. the PLC was mostly a bystander in the early phase, although as I recall, the general perception at the time was to some degree that the then-trustees of the WSRA were trying to gain power over the PLC - and ironically it seemed to me that general opinion then mostly backed the PLC, to the minor degree in which the PLC was involved). And then it moved on to something entirely different. Which, I reckon, is why many feel that the WSR's governance structures simply aren't 'fit for purpose' - at least with the cast of personalities involved in the WSR: constant blow-ups.

    So in stepping into the puddle you've stepped into very deep water indeed, and any appearance that you're being partial (even when expressing an opinion) can make one a target - as you have no doubt painfully found.

    Noel
     
  7. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    I suspect the key difference between us is in a shade of meaning. I don’t see that the statutory duties prevent incorporated organisations being run democratically, but I do agree that those statutory duties constrain what office holders may do, and the decisions that members can impose upon those office holders.

    Where we align, completely, is that those statutory requirements associated with incorporation mean that the organisation can not be run for the benefit of the members. I suspect in practice that there are few who really want that type of operation, and that the vast majority of preservationists accept that their freedom is circumscribed.

    I’ve said before that my job is commercial management, not law. My experience of working with the legal profession is that almost all are very good at identifying problems with a course of action. The good ones, in the commercial sector at least, are then equally adept at finding a way through the maze of competing requirements to suggest a practical way to proceed. At the WSR in particular, too much of the role of lawyers has been in emphasising what isn’t possible, rather than how the law can be used practically and to good effect.


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  8. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    I certainly agree with you that the operating entity needs the space to act in an appropriate fashion, which is why I am always careful to note that they should be there to carry out the member wishes "within the financial and regulatory constraints". Indeed, I suspect on my own railway, and no doubt on many others, the greatest source of tension tends to arise from the need in particular to operate in a cost-effective manner, which isn't always tightly aligned with members' wishes. Nonetheless, there has to be a recognition that those members tend to be the source of both major funding and volunteer labour. The tragedy of the WSR is that for many years they have clearly not been operating in a financially sustainable way, yet they appear to have also alienated a substantial proportion of the enthusiasts and members who might otherwise have rushed to support the railway financially in its hour of need, this year more than ever.

    As an aside, one of the most notable fund-raising achievements by any heritage railway this year was the very rapid way in which the Lynton and Barnstaple raised funds to buy, in a perhaps once-in-a-lifetime way, another of the historic stations along their route. To me that clearly shows the role of how an inspirational idea can capture the imagination and unlock purse strings. Where is vision on the WSR, when even their own supporter's Facebook site is largely devoted to pictures of people weeding the track, and the main stories refer to locomotives and rolling stock leaving the line?

    Tom
     
  9. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

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    This thread dates back to November 15th 2007. Many people have entered the stage and some have moved on. The WSR is an attractive railway no doubt about it, however it is plagued by what could be called unpleasant undercurrents. The precise mechanisms that drive these undercurrents may defy explanation, but those who observe and experience the railway are sure that they exist. So, if they do exist, are they damaging to the long term future of the line? If they are damaging who is responsible for identifying the root cause of these undercurrents? Further who (if anyone) is responsible for dealing with them? Who can you decently expect to make themselves aware of disruptive and damaging traits impacting on the long term well being of the line? The rank and file? Or maybe those who have achieved a higher level of what might be seen as responsibility? For those that achieve those higher levels of responsibility what might be decently expected of them? They may well have to operate within a legal framework and at a basic level I am sure that most people understand this. But perhaps more deserves to be expected. So has satisfactory leadership been delivered and if not why should this be the case? And if it is adjudged that the leadership has not lived up to reasonable expectations, what then?

    Some are concerned that the events taking place on or around the WSR are doing the railway preservation movement as a whole something of a disservice and when you look at other preserved railways, the problems they have encountered over the years and how they have dealt with them it is difficult to avoid asking questions. If this is the case why should those that might be termed as outsiders not be permitted to voice their concern and disquiet? The railway is in need of organisational change, this has been acknowledged for many years now. Progress is seen to be very slow in achieving any significant change so those that are concerned ask the question why should this be? Can any urgency be driven by those who are ordinary members of the associated organisations? Does the drive come from the top? And if so why the lethargy?

    I feel sorry for those ordinary members who turn out in order to do what they can. I wish that it had not come to the current state of affairs. The ordinary members rely on those at the head of their respective organisations to make the best decisions not only for the group but for the railway as a whole. The WSR is now in a worse situation than it was this morning bearing in mind the news from the S&DRT and it is very hard not to ask the obvious question. How did it come to this?

    What were the responsible bodies looking after exactly? What were their perceptions of the situation and why did they take the actions that they did? Equally they may well have other courses of action open to them but they chose not to take them But it was not the rank and file that made the choice. We might say that others did. And if their interests were not aligned with those of the group that they were supposed to be representing why should a level of criticism not be forthcoming?

    Do you call an election if you are not confident that you will win? So equally there are other situations where it might appear to be wise for external input not to be called for. If you are thinking that your decision is the right one you don't want to expose it to challenge. 2007, and the less than wise decision making goes back well before that.

    Is it any wonder that people are exasperated? Life is finite, all the money in the world will not buy a second more of it, there is no shop where you can buy a life top-up card, resources are not endless and neither is sympathy for a plight, even less so for one that can be seen as self inflicted.

    I do not want preserved lines to get into terminal difficulties. And as for self inflicted wounds, they ought to be avoidable. but for the WSR it appears to be something of a specialisation. And I wish that this was not the case. There appears to be no redemption in sight, not soon enough anyway. Maybe brinkmanship of the highest order has become the chosen road. how exciting for the participants, I hope they can digest the rewards.

    Like many others I can walk away from this. Preserved railways are not my sole interest and if I am disappointed so be it. Others will also probably be disappointed with the turn of events, but you don't have to head along the M5 and turn off at Taunton.

    Shoes. If you want to be able to see things from another person's point of view it is said that you have to be prepared to make the effort to stand in their shoes. Well the extraordinary ordinary who devote so much to trying to keep this line alive I can understand, the shoes largely fit. But the positions adopted by those who, shall we we say pretend, react too slowly to impacting events (those who have made an effort I apologise to but sadly the negatives are swamping you and you don't deserve that) or are seen to ignore to an extent a group or body for which they have a responsibility are another matter. It is perceptions and outcomes, and the outcomes? They don't just impact upon the WSR, the ripples spread and the tainted wash, who else might it impact upon? There are some shoes that I am unable to get into. Perhaps this is for the best.
     
  10. Springs Branch

    Springs Branch New Member

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    Issue 701 of Railway Herald out today appears to continue the trend of the reporting of this saga in the so-called 'specialist press'.
    I wouldn't call it a biased report, I would say that it was worse than that but will leave others closer to the action to give their views.
     
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  11. AnthonyTrains2017

    AnthonyTrains2017 Well-Known Member

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    1940s weekend cancelled that was this weekend
     
  12. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Indeed, unfortunate for the WSR. I do think it further highlights why they were wrong not to make hay while the sun shined this year, even if it couldn't do full line services due to other constraints.
     
  13. D1002

    D1002 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Presumably a victim of the latest government guidance.
     
  14. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    It is easy to say that the railway has missed an opportunity by not running trains this year. If they had made that decision, I'm pretty certain that the ORR would have descended pretty quickly. There's more to running a train service than simply finding some volunteers, lighting up a loco and attaching it to a few coaches. The correct (and only) decision is to not run trains.
     
  15. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

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    Surely though while you may be right, why wasnt the WSR able to run trains?

    From what @Robin Moira White said it wasnt impossible and again a service could have been run from BL to Watchet
     
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  16. Bayard

    Bayard Well-Known Member

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    Once again, "everyone is marching out of step except our Johnny".
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2020
  17. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

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    But surely those constraints don't magically disappear in the future? So you don't have to underestimate the difficulties of re-opening to perceive that if re-opening this summer was too difficult, it isn't going to get any easier next year. All the constraints (level crossing replacement, track repairs, rolling stock maintenance, crew re-assessment, covid precautions etc.), and the costs of mitigating them, will still exist in the future, to which you can possibly add a few new ones (no significant income beyond furlough payments for 15 months, loss of volunteer morale etc).

    Tom
     
  18. Steve

    Steve Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    To operate any railway you have to have a safety management system in place. That is not simply a document. You have to be able to do what that document says and, most importantly, actually do it. If you can’t, you shouldn’t be running trains.
    I don’t know this for fact but this is my understanding of the situation at the WSR. Happy to be told it is wrong, though.
     
  19. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    I'm confused Steve. The WSR must have a SMS, as up until last year, they ran trains, and until the pandemic started, were planning on doing so this year as well. What's changed? I understand all the bits about the level crossing and new track works not being complete and signed off, but I don't understand why that would prevent a service over the rest of the line. It came across to me as a commercial decision, one I think that is wrong.
     
  20. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

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    Though there’s been discussion many, many, pages back about the effect of the missing HR policies on the SMS, and the level crossing issues would certainly require adaptations to ways of working, I’ve yet to see a serious suggestion that the WSR either lacks an SMS or is unable to operate in accordance with one. Given the work done following the present chairman’s appointment and the ORR findings, that would surprise me in a way that nothing yet reported has.

    I very much hope that this suggestion is just a misunderstanding, and not the revelation that things are in even worse state than previously feared.


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