If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Nope, blue. Heavy, but lots of wheels.:)
     
  2. Alan Kebby

    Alan Kebby Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2019
    Messages:
    1,173
    Likes Received:
    1,223
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Brighton
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The WSR did get offered 3803 in exchange for 4561 by the SDR not so long ago. They turned it down because they didn’t like the way GWR 2-8-0s wore the track. (Experience of 3850 no doubt)
     
    flying scotsman123 likes this.
  3. D1002

    D1002 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2011
    Messages:
    8,659
    Likes Received:
    6,415
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Enfield
    Maybe of interest. My video from 8 years ago. Includes a couple of clips of 3850 in action.
    The West Somerset Steam Express, 34067 Tangmere, GWR 2-8-0 No. 3850, 21 July 2012.

    At least it’s on topic - ‘West Somerset Railway Operations’;).

     
    Last edited: Jul 13, 2020
  4. 242A1

    242A1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 3, 2006
    Messages:
    1,558
    Likes Received:
    1,299
    Useful to just about any preserved railway you would quite rightly think but this is the WSR we are talking about here which is blighted by some people who have some very deeply ingrained prejudices and not all of them are members of the supporting associations either.

    This faction want money to be found and spent improving the line to a level beyond hatched/double red in order to indulge in running larger engines (the old double red was for a maximum axle load of 22 tons 10 cwt and they want to provide a home for 6024!), big chufferitis strikes again. Taking a look at 88, with a nominal tractive effort of 35,295 lb it comes under GWR power classification E and based on its axle load is easily a blue route engine. Could the WSR work its trains with blue and yellow route engines? Of course they could and have. Do they have need of larger engines in order to deal with the heaviest trains coming onto the line? Only when they haven't got the 7f available. True it is not always going to be available but if you plan for your maintenance and overhauls like Ian Riley does with the locomotives that he has charge of then it is not going to be out of traffic overlong. Neither will any other engine if this well planed approach is adopted. If they haven't got the S&D machine they could perhaps hire a locomotive for a period but evidently the GW 2-8-0 types have an unsatisfactorily long coupled wheelbase.

    The railway should maintain its route to a level it can afford, blue should suffice for now, it should not be indulging in dreams, now is not the time. The railway needs more support but it will be some time before it receives it. Until people are convinced that it has well and truly buried the past and reformed itself into an organisation which can be respected and trusted folk will correctly direct their donations elsewhere. Trustworthiness is easily destroyed, so is credibility and it takes a great deal of work to restore them. If the WSR and its organisations want to know how it came to this then they should look firmly at themselves and the those who all to frequently rise to the top. Self inflicted wounds.
     
    D7076, Piggy, MellishR and 6 others like this.
  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Mm, I don't think we should let the knowledge that the chairman owns 3 red route locos cloud our views too much.
    Bear in mind that the WSR needs a lot of civil engineering work done anyway, it may well make sense to reinstate red route status at the same time, rather than doing everything twice. Not being able to accept heavier engines does restrict what you can run, and that may be a constraint. Already the WSR has lost Raveningham Hall, and taking the chairman's ownership out of things for a moment, there's no denying that a 96xx would be a jolly useful locomotive too. The WSR has a need for at least 1 engine that can take 12 coaches several times a year, but isn't absurdly overpowered for normal running either. In practice that means at least 2 engines, allowing for overhauls. Once you rule out GWR 2-8-0s, you're not left with much that isn't red route. I think it's also worth remembering that there is a difference in the level of civil engineering required to accommodate a double red loco going at 70mph compared to 25mph too.
    So yes, the WSR can in theory run its services with only blue and yellow locos, but in a world where steam locomotives are in short supply, you really don't want to be restricting yourselves if you can help it. I'm sure the KESR for instance would love to run only ex-SR locos, but beggars can't be choosers so they run a variety of locos.
     
  6. Wriggley

    Wriggley New Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2019
    Messages:
    88
    Likes Received:
    379
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Essex
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Gosh some of these pictures are truly depressing: http://cgibin.wsr.org.uk/cgi-bin/gallery.cgi?h=Topical%20pictures&t=pics
    It's incredibly admirable that volunteers have been out weeding by hand in the last few weeks but on the hand WTF??! Surely the PLC can afford to send a weed killing train / vehicle down the track at the very least?
    This would surely be a great morale booster as well as the practical reasons for doing so.
    After all the railway made a £300k profit last year didn't it?!
     
  7. D7076

    D7076 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,401
    Likes Received:
    484
    Especially if you spend each month worrying about if you will receive your steaming fees or landed with a haulage cost to move your loco from the exWSR.
     
  8. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I thought he only owned 2 Alex? 9466 and 4936 - have I forgotten one?

    Keith
     
  9. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Sorry, yes, I think I must have accidentally counted Thornbury Castle which he has of course sold.
     
    ghost likes this.
  10. lostlogin

    lostlogin Member

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    428
    Likes Received:
    205
    Needing a certain type of engine to cope with just a few trains a year does seem an expensive options. Is there any reason why they could not simply resort to double heading these few trains or do they have weight restrictions over certain structures?
     
    jnc, Greenway and Paulthehitch like this.
  11. ghost

    ghost Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    May 29, 2006
    Messages:
    3,967
    Likes Received:
    5,064
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    N.Ireland
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Thought my memory was going! Thanks!

    Keith
     
  12. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,065
    Likes Received:
    20,775
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Hard to imagine that anyone owning a big engine would want their loco to go somewhere where there was a question mark over the quality of the track and the substructure it was running over. Scale that up to the many big main line locos that only ever travel by rail to a heritage line and that probably becomes a deal breaker. If a line can only survive by importing big engines that it doesn't have then that feels like a flawed business model if in the process the railway's infrastructure takes a beating that incurs maintenance costs many times greater than the extra income these locomotives may bring.

    If factors like this are really important on the WSR, rather than just being discussed on here, then it does seem quite strange that a mature and well established line has almost stumbled into these issues rather than seen them coming years back and planned for it.

    This is beginning to feel as though a whole team of expert advisers needs to be parachuted into the WSR to make a hard-headed and independent assessment of the health of the line and recommend the best action to restore something - anything - that has a future. Or has that already been done and the optimum solution is just too unpalatable?
     
  13. 35B

    35B Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    25,493
    Likes Received:
    23,730
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Grantham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I find the juxtaposition of two things interesting. Firstly, we have the identified requirement to sort out the infrastructure of the WSR because track and structures/earthworks have been allowed to deteriorate through under investment over many years. Work was done on this 18 months ago, with more needed.

    Second, we have work from the winter shutdown left unfinished and seemingly well behind where it should have been at with the originally planned reopening date in March. Subsequently, working parties seem to be organised slightly haphazardly and as a result of bottom up endeavour rather than as an organised programme of work.

    I’m confused about the contrasting impressions of the current railway management that these leave.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
     
    MellishR, staffordian, jnc and 3 others like this.
  14. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,103
    Likes Received:
    57,432
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    There seems to be something of a myth going round that 53808 is only needed for a few trains per year.

    According to Issue 1 of "Platform", it:

    'ran very well during 2019 covering just under 9,000 faultless miles on the WSR'​

    You don't do 9,000 miles per year if you only come out for half a dozen mainline specials each summer!

    There seem to be lots of myths and suppositions about loco operating costs of supposedly big and small locos. It's hard to see why No. 88 should be more expensive to overhaul than, say, a Manor - you've got the same number of pistons and valves to maintain; the same number of axle boxes, a similarly-sized boiler and so on. Equally on coal consumption: most locomotives are much-of-a-muchness on efficiency, so No. 88 working to pull 6 coaches won't use an appreciably different amount of coal to any other loco, since it is doing equivalent work - probably rather less than a too-small loco being worked very hard and throwing coal away up the chimney.

    The things that drive operating cost:

    - Low reliability (because it decreases the number of days available, so increases the cost per day)
    - Being too small (coal lost up the chimney)
    - Inefficient rostering, i.e. intermittent usage (because it leads to increased coal lost lighting up - you'll use more coal running seven consecutive Sundays than running seven consecutive days)
    - Crew capability (but subject to the fact you have to keep training new crews.)
    - High axle load (which is more of an impact on infrastructure cost than loco costs, but still a significant part of the equation).

    On all those factors, No. 88 looks a bargain.

    Tom
     
  15. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,628
    Likes Received:
    4,210
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    That infers the route was once classed as red. When was that ?

    Upgrading the line would be a massive investment and all investments should have a payback period. The world will stop mining coal before the investment is paid off. If however you have 2 and a quarter red route locos, things look very different. The WSR is not there for the personal gain of any individual but not every individual shares that view.
     
    Wriggley, D7076, RichardBrum and 6 others like this.
  16. Ian Monkton

    Ian Monkton Member

    Joined:
    Nov 26, 2011
    Messages:
    945
    Likes Received:
    993
    Location:
    South Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    If a weed killer train ran today, the weeds would gradually die off over a period of weeks, and would still be visible, albeit dead, for months to come. Hand weeding gives instant results, and is just as effective as spraying when the roots are removed as well. The only downside is that it takes a great deal longer and a lot of hard work!
     
  17. Greenway

    Greenway Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2008
    Messages:
    3,906
    Likes Received:
    3,704
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    South Hams
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    And I am sure the WSR knows that they have a bargain Tom. A pity they have to bite the hand that gives!!
     
    malcolm imps likes this.
  18. Pete Thornhill

    Pete Thornhill Resident of Nat Pres Staff Member Administrator Moderator Friend

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2008
    Messages:
    7,498
    Likes Received:
    5,455
    It was a Red route from the mid 90’s ish until a couple of years ago when it was downgraded to blue due to the condition of the track.
     
    flying scotsman123 likes this.
  19. Big Al

    Big Al Nat Pres stalwart Staff Member Moderator

    Joined:
    May 30, 2009
    Messages:
    21,065
    Likes Received:
    20,775
    Location:
    1016
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I think that all independent observers have worked out by now that this is not about No.88 at all for all the sensible reasons you have just listed. There just has to be something else going on and because No. 88 is not part of that narrative, it becomes the headline.

    I get completely the fact that there is so much in the way of the future operation of this railway that this thread has almost become redundant in that content. I also get the fact that no company should feel obliged to 'go public' on anything. However the solution does lie partly in the hands of many people, mostly volunteers, who want to bring anything back to life on the line, or even part of the line.

    Have I missed the obvious? By that I mean something relayed by anyone in authority that says:
    We have a problem.
    The problem is.....
    To solve this problem we need to do the following, immediately
    We then need to.......
    This will involve.....for the following reasons
    Not everyone will be happy about this but it is a way forward
    Help us and we can make it happen but we realise that not everyone will want to come with us.
     
  20. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    As if things couldn't get worse, the WSR PLC Chairman and his holdings company have now instructed Solicitors (in Clitheroe), who have written to Julie Norman (Headteacher of Stogumber C of E Primary school) threatening libel proceedings and a claim for compensation, legal costs, and a threat to report her to the Police for the crime of harassment.

    Although Julie Norman's letter of 9th March was widely repeated in the press and by the local MP (and on here), it appears that she is being personally singled out - with the inevitable consequence - if followed through and successful - of the school and Somerset County Council and presumably also the Department of Education - paying the WSR PLC Chairman and his holdings company significant amounts of money.

    And if Julie Norman is prosecuted for a crime, she would presumably have to endure further consequences from her employer.

    So, we now know what has been exercising the minds of some of late, rather than run a railway.

    Cheers,

    Julian Atkins
     
    Wriggley, Piggy and Sunnieboy like this.

Share This Page