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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    Doesn't this show the importance of keeping decent relations with S&DRT, who are providing the services of 53808? Perhaps a firm and credible commitment to meeting the cost of overhaul at the end of the hire term would help.

    John
     
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  2. baldbof

    baldbof Well-Known Member Friend

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    Could someone in the know, please kindly refresh a mere mortal of what exactly is involved in the transfer of WSRA (Promotions) to the plc? Life is already too short to go ploughing through numerous pages and sites.

    Is it just the brand name or physical assets such as the contents of a building, the building itself or what?

    Thanks.

    Confused of 200+ miles away
     
  3. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    https://www.gov.uk/guidance/how-to-report-a-serious-incident-in-your-charity
    Reporting serious incidents to the Commission has three main purposes, which enable it to meet its statutory objectives and functions:
    3. The Commission can assess the risk to other charities: Serious incident reporting helps the Commission to measure the volume and impact of incidents within charities, to identify trends and to understand the risks facing the sector as a whole. This insight helps the Commission to warn charities about risks and give trustees the information and tools they need to succeed.


    The WSSRT are a registered charity.
    Wonder if the CC will be asking them questions o_O
     
  4. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    So, WSRA agree to sell certain assets to WSRplc.
    The records, & a public statement from WSRA*, state that the sale occurred in December 2019.

    This must have been by agreement of both parties, & will have been a fixed date.
    On that date, the WSRA will have signed over the assets, handed over keys, transferred a staff members contract (?), cancelled insurance etc.
    On the same date, they will have received from the plc a bankers draft/transfer/etc.

    Yet it's now come out that not only did funds not get exchanged, they hadn't been exchanged by the end of March, or even the end of May.


    This isn't some £multi-million transaction with staged payments etc.
    Payment & exchange would be the same day.
    What on earth did the WSRA agree to, & why???

    If the plc did not actually have the cash on hand, then you just pause the process & agree to complete it 6/12months later when they do.

    * https://www.wsra.org.uk/the-station-shop/
     
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  5. nanstallon

    nanstallon Part of the furniture

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    This saga does not encourage any confidence in any of the parties involved. Can't somebody please say, in plain English, what is going on?

    John
     
  6. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    The PLC has helpfully publicised that at 31st March it had an actual reconciled balance of £340,000 cash on hand, excluding the £100,000 being held "pending the acquisition" of the shop and cafe, with "the company performing strongly ahead of budget in cash terms".

    Patrick
     
  7. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    Its the commercial operational parts of the WSRA that the Coombes Review 5 years ago recommended be transferred to the PLC but never was. The recommendation was for these to be transferred so the WSRA could focus on volunteers and fund raising becuase it was failing in those areas and to not be in potential competition with the PLC for operational stuff. It all made sense to us on the WSR and was agreed by all parties.

    Without going into detail and perhaps missing out a few things its: Williton Workshop a two road workshop that can take say 6 coaches with ease 3 on each road, perhaps a bit more, the WSR yard and attached rented yard behind the Workshop called Sherrings Yard. Its a fully equipped workshop with a history of restoration and taking on external paying work. Its experienced staff were TUPPE'd across. Plus the Station Shop at Bishops Lydeard, its staff and its stock.

    I can only repeat others feelings here, this deal was agreed long ago by all , The price mentioned here was the same as agreed over 2 years ago so that wasn't a shock either. And the deal was enacted pre-covid so no excuses for not being able to pay for it. So why hasn't the invoice been paid and how many agreements is that now that have been broken, I'm losing count ?
     
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  8. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

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    So, going way back to the original statements from the Plc and the S&DRT, the cause of the eviction notice was stated as something like …because the Plc wanted more money from the S&DRT who would not pay - rightly claiming it was not within their charitable remit to do so…

    Now we have a similar situation where the Plc apparently wants to keep the monies supposed to be payment to the WSRA (as a 'donation'?)… The WSRA is quite rightly refusing, sticking to it's charity remit and demanding either the payment monies or suitable security. Does this mean that we should expect another eviction notice? Or is this just another case of the Plc having one rule for the WSRA and WSSRT and another for everyone else?
     
  9. staffordian

    staffordian Well-Known Member

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    As someone with but a simple brain, can anyone, perhaps someone with some legal knowledge, explain how such a transfer can go wrong?

    I equate it to a house purchase, where solicitors ensure the transaction only proceeds when all the legal niceties are complete, and perhaps most important, don't allow it to complete until any agreed fund transfers have gone ahead.

    Or are commercial deals done simply on trust?
     
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  10. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

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    Being a good family member, the WSRA have offered to reverse the transaction until such time as the plc can complete their obligation. The plc have refused.

    It appears that "family" only applies when the Dear Leader wants something.
     
  11. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    An update about Andrew's passing, Julie having spoken to Angela his wife today:

    Angela is happy for the news of Andrew's passing to be spread to all his friends and she thanks people for remembering him and caring. Andrew passed away on Tuesday evening from Cancer.

    There will be a private family only funeral next Thursday. However Angela will be planning at a later date a party in accordance with Andrew's wishes for all of his friends to celebrate his life. Anybody who knew Andrew will understand he would want people to be happy and enjoy themselves rather than mourn his passing so the planned party will be a upbeat, happy affair. Details will follow in due course for anybody wanting to attend.
     
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  12. Something of a dysfunctional family it seems.
     
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  13. baldbof

    baldbof Well-Known Member Friend

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    Thanks for that answer Andy. AIU your post, it's some real estate including the buildings and contents plus the staff. £100K** for that lot seems cheap at the price - is there a '0' missing off the end of that figure? There's a plot advertised in Watchet for £105,000 with just enough space for a three-bedroomed house.

    Hang on a minute!! Weren't some other WSRA assets transferred to new owners not so long ago for less than it should have been (all be it under a different regime)?? Bit of a trend developing? I wouldn't be surprised if the Charities Commission said "What?? Again??"

    **edited to add; the 100K figure taken from the plc's statement announcing the turnround in their fortunes.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
  14. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    9466 is owned by Kinlet Hall Ltd, which itself is majority owned by JJP Holdings (South West) Ltd.
    However, Kinlet Hall Ltd has a mortgage on it of up to £378k. This was arranged after the most recent set of accounts were prepared & so doesn't show on those accounts.

    Yet weirdly, another of the companies has it listed as part of it's collection
    https://jjpsouthwest.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/Vintage-Rail-Road-Steam-Collection-PDF.pdf



    Will the WSR suddenly find that they've hired a loco...
     
  15. Piggy

    Piggy Member

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    Dear me, let's not beat about the bush, the 'Dear Leader' is likely to cost the WSR dear wouldn't you say ?
     
  16. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    Isn't the Williton stuff rented?
    The shop/cafe building is a one-storey timber structure, so likely not of much value.
     
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  17. Roger Thompson

    Roger Thompson Member

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    The Swindon Shed and yard at Williton were only leased to the WSRA for use by West Somerset Restorations by WSR PLC. This lease expired a couple of years back, and was being extended on a short term basis pending agreement on the transfer of Restorations to the PLC. So the transfer value agreed for West Somerset Restorations does not include any buildings or land, but covers such items as machinery, stocks of materials, and any goodwill held in the business.
    The far bigger share of the transfer value would have been the shop and cafe at Bishops Lydeard, which was very profitable, with a significant value of shop stock. The building housing the shop and cafe was erected at WSRA expense on land owned by the PLC many years ago, under one of the many informal arrangements between the two bodies which seemed fine at the time but have caused so many problems since.

    Sent from my SM-T590 using Tapatalk
     
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  18. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    The land the Workshop/Yard/Shop sits on is SCC land leased to the WSR under the main long term lease (apart from Sherrings Yard) so in theory its sub leased by the PLC to the WSRA.

    The buildings, equipment, machine tools, track, etc. etc are owned/donated/ given/purchased by the WSRA over many years. Just in the same way as the S&D developed Washford over 45 years from a brown field site for the good of the WSR as a whole.

    Of course the other part of the Coombes review recommendations and as 'part of the deal' with these transfers was the WSRA (or a new or variation of) became the lead charity and had a clearer remit for volunteers, fund raising and strategic direction, the PDG was in place for the family to decide how that direction was set and the freehold was to be held by another separate trust/charity set up specifically for the purpose to ensure it was ring fenced and safe for future generations.

    But it appears the PLC now have it all, are pushing the WSRA out, still evicting the S&D (no deals to stay), have the WSSRT as the new 'controlling charity' and are trying to buy the freehold for themselves, plus it hasn't cost them a penny. To me this looks like the opposite of what should have happened.
     
    Last edited: Jun 18, 2020
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  19. baldbof

    baldbof Well-Known Member Friend

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    Thank you for that clarification.
     
  20. RichardBrum

    RichardBrum Member

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    from the WSRA 2019 AGM (April 2019)
    Sale of Promotions
    The Association has agreed with the Plc that it would concentrate on fundraising and withdraw from commercial activities, and the Plc for its part would concentrate on raising revenue from the fare-box and other sales. There was an agreement in principle to sell Promotions, the Association’s trading company, to the Plc, but it was necessary to agree the details of staff transfers in order to comply with the requirements of the Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations (TUPE). Once that had been done it was hoped that the sale could take place at the end of the Association’s financial year (31st December 2019). Trustees would have to obtain a fair price for the company in accordance with charity law, but once there was no need for the working capital required by the company it should be possible to make a substantial donation towards the Plc’s heritage needs.


    So the plc had at least 7 months to arrange funds for payment.
    Between that AGM date, & the sale prior to 9 December 2019, there have been 3 plc directors as a constant;
    JJP as Chairman
    Mark Leonard Smith (also of HRA)
    Martin Hughes Brown


    The plc's strategic report for 1/1/2018-31/3-2019, approved by the board 1/11/2019 (at which time there were only the 3 directors listed above)
    states that "both the Williton shed operation & the Bishops Lydeard shop will be transferred into the Company before the end of the calendar year...."
     

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