If you register, you can do a lot more. And become an active part of our growing community. You'll have access to hidden forums, and enjoy the ability of replying and starting conversations.

S&D Railway Trust

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by Andy Norman, Feb 24, 2020.

  1. Piggy

    Piggy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2020
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    327
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Let's hope it's sooner rather than later .....
     
  2. Snifter

    Snifter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,628
    Likes Received:
    4,210
    Gender:
    Male
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    I am told that a warming fire was attempted with a gas burner which appears to be more wasteful than dangerous. If there's a stone throwing competition about to start then I would advise against it as it would not end well.

    I also helped out on the final day behind the bar at the Washford real ale event and there were no reports of any safety concerns. The reference in the plc statement includes no date, time nor detail. Make of that what you will.
     
  3. D1039

    D1039 Guest

    Looking from the outside:

    "The PLC would be prepared to discuss some delays in the lease termination due the current situation, but will have to make clear that the PLC can’t fund the locomotive’s overhaul, given the current financial position. The original and extension leases have arrangements for arbitration – and that may also provide a way forward."

    The PLC's conclusion is to me interesting. It has seemingly linked the two agreements of the site and locomotive.

    The original and extension leases [for the site] have arrangements for arbitration but it's silent on terms for arbitration of the locomotive's hire agreement. The PLC made clear they understood the terms of the locomotive's hire agreement and would develop a reserve to fund an overhaul. It has also stated the PLC can’t fund the locomotive’s overhaul, given the current financial position. It's not clear if the PLC expects that will constitute a breach of its agreement, and what the Trust's remedy would be.

    On the site issue I find it difficult to follow a number of statements, perhaps it's just me.
    1. [Beforehand] "The PLC briefed the Chairs of the WSRA and Steam Trust on the direction we were taking before the legal statutory notice was served. They were both aligned at the time with the PLC action".
    2. "The WSRA and the WSRST were [later] invited by the PLC to understand how the dispute had arisen" [implying their previous alignment was without such understanding]
    3. "The WSRA and the WSRST expressed their support for the PLC"
    4. "It was agreed that the best way to minimise those concerns [of the members of the S & D Trust, raised by the WSRA and the WSRST] was to use the services of an independent party, which is provided for in the terms of the lease".
    5. "We [the PLC] wish to help the Trust exit…" [where does that leave the services of the independent third party?]
    It's all rather curious.

    Patrick
     
    tracker, MellishR, 35B and 4 others like this.
  4. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    Beware of revisionist history making, and relying on second hand hearsay! The WSR PLC could have relied on statutory grounds that the SDRT had infringed it's lease, that requires the SDRT to comply with all safety provisions etc of the WSR PLC; but it did not. It relied on only on the statutory grounds that it intended to occupy the premises for it's own business or use.

    Also no pre-action letter or any warning to the SDRT whatsoever. And all correspondence from the SDRT to the WSR PLC has gone unanswered! (Not the other way round as claimed!)

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
    Last edited: May 2, 2020
  5. Downline

    Downline New Member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2020
    Messages:
    137
    Likes Received:
    288
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    So it is claimed the loco was lit up dangerously. The last time that could have happened would have been March 2018, as it then left for Helston during April/May 2018. At the same time period, a new lease was signed (April 2018? apologies if I got this wrong). Current board members start joining from September 2018. Make of that timeline what you wish.

    One for people on here with more legal knowledge than I have, but can you use events that have taken place prior to the lease being signed as a reason for eviction?
     
  6. Piggy

    Piggy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2020
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    327
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    More devious than curious ?
     
  7. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Perhaps those involved with the WSSRT and WSRA and who post on here might care to explain why they and their respective organisations have chosen to support the PLC in the eviction of the S&DRT, and how this squares with the ‘railway family’ rhetoric.

    Perhaps they might want to explain why in this crisis caused by covid they think it is a sensible course of action to evict the S&DRT and why people should continue to financially support their organisations despite their behaviour and actions.

    Perhaps they might like to explain why they have chosen to sell out the S&DRT?

    @aldfort @ikcdab @Robin Moira White
     
    BrightonBaltic, tracker and MellishR like this.
  8. I'm bemused at the statement that the plc withdrew their support for the Real Ale Festival at Washford; it was a plc event!

    As recently as January this year JJP was actively lobbying for a repeat Real Ale Festival to be held at Washford in 2020.

    CAMRA ran the festival on behalf of our Plc and S&DRT hosted the event free of charge. I was in charge of the CAMRA operation and nobody raised any safety issues with me either during or since the event. I kept a keen eye on proceedings and witnessed nothing of concern.

    Goodness knows what a 'visitor' reported to ORR. First I've heard of that.

    I suppose we should be pleased WSRA and WSSRT are acting in concert. A good basis for amalgamating perhaps?
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 2, 2020
    tracker, Swan Age, MellishR and 11 others like this.
  9. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Rubbish. The WSR was taken aback by quite how much anger this has generated, and realised the error of their ways, not enough to change the minds, but enough to remind them that they need to maintain some semblance of normal functioning human beings.

    Now either my understanding of 53808’s hire agreement as explained on here is wrong, or the Plc board’s is. I understood it to be the case that because the WSR is not paying for the use of the loco on a daily basis, they are to return the locomotive to working condition upon the end of the lease. Where does the WSR think the S&D Trust has all these pots of money lying around for locomotive overhauls if it’s not earning daily steaming fees? Also “It was agreed that there was need for an overhaul, and that the PLC would develop a reserve to fund that” reads very oddly. Didn’t the Plc agree to that as a part of the hire agreement? They make it sound like they’re being much more generous here when in fact they’re doing the bare minimum.

    As has been noted, this doesn’t add up with the S&D statement. It’s also not the S&D Trust’s responsibility to cough up regardless, but they have anyway.

    Given we’ve heard that the S&D Trust had future plans before all this and they were even hoping to apply for some grants (?) I find this very hard to believe.

    It still sounds like a wishlist to me. Washford has a decent yard by WSR standards, but housing the Railway’s P’way depot, workshops for restoration (of what, and by whom?), covered winter accommodation (so will stand empty most of the year?) and enhanced museum and visitor facilities? We’re struggling to fit all of that in Winchcombe yard, which is a much bigger site.

    “Not acceptable to the WSR because of the development it wishes to make on its land for the greater benefit of the railway” Eh? What on earth is this on about?

    Again, my understanding is that whether it can or can’t fund this overhaul is beside the point, legally it is obliged to do so, and despite that, the Trust have offered to pitch in anyway.

    This is such an arrogant statement. In fact I’d go so far as to lump it in the same category as the cuckoos in the nest one. It’s also demonstrably untrue. The S&D Trust have been at Washford for 40 years and turned it from nothing to what it is today, one of my highest priority intermediate station visits o my trips on the line. That doesn’t look like resisting attempts to invest in the site. Above there was also criticism for the S&D Trust for trying to apply for a LRO, no doubt that formed part of a larger plan to improve the visitor offering at Washford?

    It surely doesn’t matter whether other tenants were frightened into agreeing higher rents. The S&D Trust should be applauded for making a brave stand, as their very public eviction has opened the floodgates when it comes to seeing the true character of the WSR boards.

    Was that a “sorry” in there somewhere? No, not quite. Oh well. I had to laugh at how “shocked” they were about un-factual stories, when some feature in this very letter. I’m also reminded of the un-named WSR spokesperson who claimed in a Steam Beano article that S&D Trust volunteers didn’t have WSR ID cards.

    As has been noted, two interesting things here. Explicitly stating that the WSR will not be funding 53808’s overhaul, despite its contract and trying to conflate the two separate agreements for the locomotive and the land. The last WSR statement was quite clear that the two were unconnected. Now they’re not so sure.


    I could go on but that's quite enough for now. Some of it is just so unbelievable it's difficult to express in words, the money and the WSRA/WSSRT aspects particularly I just don't know where to begin in putting thoughts to paper (or server space!).

    I await with interest the S&D Trust's response, which no doubt will be calm, considered and factual as usual. The trouble is that no matter how emollient the WSR try and appear, unless they actually reverse the decision it's far too late to undo the damage done by their initial statements. For many of us although we were concerned before the WSR published its cuckoo statement, we were unsure. That was the tipping point, and it was a point of no return really, not with just words anyway. Especially when, as the evening has gone on, various aspects of it have been picked apart to expose them for what they are, trumped up rubbish.
     
  10. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Sorry to get semantic again, but could you please explain this comment?
    Clearly you have had a much better education than I, but I thought that revisionist history was when the teachers at school tell my kids that the Empire was a terrible thing, what with the way the arrogant white males of this country went off round the world, ending slavery, human sacrifice and selfishly replacing that with democracy and trial by jury. Oh, and every good thing Britain ever did was done either by slaves, Indians or women...
    I had wondered if revisionist history was maybe repainting Royal Scot and 4472 into the miserable colour they wear today...
    Or is it where someone tries to blind observers by shovelling horse apples in their faces in the hope that sh*t will stick to anyone and everyone else.
    I just don't know. Can you explain then your idea of revisionism? How does it differ from covering your backside, or covering your tracks? Or false reporting, or propaganda, or spin, or "sexing up", or lying, or bearing false witness, or perjury...
    Enquiring minds want to know, :confused:
     
    BrightonBaltic likes this.
  11. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    I think what @jma1009 meant was actually historical negationism, often incorrectly referred to as revisionism. Revisionism isn't necessarily a bad thing, it's always good to go over established views if new evidence comes to light, negationism is when you make things up to enable that revision to be made.
     
  12. ross

    ross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    1,002
    Likes Received:
    2,477
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Titfield
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Ah, ok. So is that what I call bullshit then?
     
  13. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2013
    Messages:
    10,440
    Likes Received:
    17,941
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Cheltenham
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Oh what a crude use of our wonderfully varied and subtle language, developed over centuries
    Oh b******* to all of that - Yes! :)
     
  14. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,381
    Likes Received:
    1,637
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    ynysddu south wales
    Hi Ross,

    'Revisionist history' - lets just say the "Note" to the joint statement is untrue and a distortion of the facts in many material respects and an attempt to re-write what has actually gone on.

    Will that do?

    I am trying to keep within the Moderators' strictures on all this - without getting this thread also getting locked down.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
  15. Jamie Glover

    Jamie Glover New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2010
    Messages:
    129
    Likes Received:
    380
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Civil engineer (Railway infrastructure).
    Location:
    Central Asia and Manila, Philippines
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Re: Recent Statements Issued by the WSR Plc and its two support organisations.

    I've read through both statements and have been absolutely shocked their contents. The story of Pinocchio is probably more truthful than the rubbish I've read over and over again this morning.

    The Plc statement reads more more like a rambling Tweet by the likes of one Donald Trump than an honest statement based on true facts and circumstances.

    The two support group board's joint statement quite simply betrays its members (whom they are supposed to represent) and who at the same time are now being totally ignored.

    Yes! I do wish to see evictions from West Somerset Railway premises. Starting with the four Plc Board members from their offices at Minehead followed up by the black sheep within the support group's boards who have metamorphosed into Plc toadies where matters concerning the S&DRT are concerned.
    Seriously,
    Jamie Glover.
     
  16. Jamessquared

    Jamessquared Nat Pres stalwart

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2008
    Messages:
    26,106
    Likes Received:
    57,443
    Location:
    LBSC 215
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    That was kind how I read it.

    It doesn't seem absolutely wrong to me that, even with the kind of "run and repair" agreement in place, that the S&DRT shouldn't also contribute to the overhaul - as it appears they have offered to do. That may be above and beyond the contractual terms, but the loco owning group would nonetheless be getting something of value from the arrangement: seeing their loco run quicker than it might otherwise do. Such an arrangement wouldn't be unique, though the longer this goes on, the more attitudes on either side harden.

    You would hope though that such things could be arrived at amicably. The irony is that, if the compromise outcome of all this is that the S&DRT remains but at a higher annual rent, they will be even less likely to have the funds to contribute to the overhaul.

    The same applies to station maintenance - there is no mention of that in the plc statement, though in value it is likely to be more per annum than the cash sum of the rent. Again, a negotiated outcome in which the S&DRT pays more rent to stay but the plc has to fund the station building maintenance would be a Pyrrhic victory for the plc.

    Ultimately, there is only so much money to go round; the plc as the dominant party on the railway may feel the need to re-allocate which pot that money is in, but this isn't generating a net increase in funds available either to overhaul the loco or maintain the fabric of the railway. It’s the same old WSR story of vicious arguments about who gets the largest slice of the pie while ignoring any attempt to make the pie bigger.

    Tom
     
    tracker, big.stu, Swan Age and 16 others like this.
  17. martin1656

    martin1656 Nat Pres stalwart Friend

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    17,611
    Likes Received:
    11,225
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    St Leonards
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Clearly there now needs to be EGM'S called on both the WSRA, and the Steam Trust, the members have been let down by their boards, and those people need removing ASSAP, then a joint from both bodies using their combined shareholding, call for an EGM to appoint new board members to the PLC board, who's first action should be to sack those three directors in question, ban them for life, and appoint someone who will have a remit to undertake a full overhaul of the structure with a view to the forming of a new support organisation, on the grounds that all supporting groups will merge into one overriding charity, , a fund raising appeal , be done to raise funds, and this will be given to the PLC, in return for shares in the PLC, The intension being that the new charity, acquires enough shares to make it the largest shareholder, and then combine both the PLC, and Charity boards. in return, the PLC, gifts its engines to the charity, to safeguard its future needs
     
  18. Piggy

    Piggy Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2020
    Messages:
    250
    Likes Received:
    327
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Somerset
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    Yes I am an active volunteer
    Far less rude than the foul language commonly used by the temporary chairman of WSR.
     
    BrightonBaltic likes this.
  19. johnofwessex

    johnofwessex Resident of Nat Pres

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2015
    Messages:
    9,190
    Likes Received:
    7,226
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Thorn in my managers side
    Location:
    72
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    Where though is the PLC getting the money from to build this new museum at Dunster & move the PWAY yard to Washford?

    The Washford site isnt that big and I cant see them getting that much in it.

    Pray can they also explain how they propose to develop Washford as a calling point? There is the Steam Trail so no doubt that might bring a few passengers but Watchet or Blue Anchor it aint.
     
    MattA, Bifur01 and Poolbrook like this.
  20. Monkey Magic

    Monkey Magic Part of the furniture

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2018
    Messages:
    3,498
    Likes Received:
    6,845
    Location:
    Here, there, everywhere
    Heritage Railway Volunteer:
    No I do not currently volunteer
    The question is where or who would lead this? Considering that the PLC, WSRA and WSSRT seem to be under the control of a clique of people who care only about their power and position in the WSR, there are a lot of barriers to doing something about the present situation.
     
    45076 and Greenway like this.

Share This Page