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West Somerset Railway General Discussion

Discussion in 'Heritage Railways & Centres in the UK' started by gwr4090, Nov 15, 2007.

  1. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    This point is scarcely limited to the WSR. To most of us (me included), "trustee" is one of those positions guaranteed to produce a "???" reaction ..... the function simply isn't well enough understood and @aldfort's comment suggests this applies as much to any organisation's active membership as to the wider public.
     
  2. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    One issue with this thread is that when people who have an official relationship with the WSR/WSRA post, it is not always clear if they are talking personally or officially. In the past there have been some very combative and almost aggressive posts by someone with an official role in WSR management, which reflects rather negatively on the WSR (and the other organisations that person works for)

    This type of negative response, effectively striking down all criticism from outsiders as invalid, is also rather offputting to this outsider for one.
     
  3. MellishR

    MellishR Resident of Nat Pres Friend

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    Many of us here are interested, concerned spectators. Some of us have contributed cash on occasion, if nothing else. We have read Andy Norman's postings. It would be good to hear from someone in the management either that the suspension of documented HR procedures did not happen or that it did but was an unfortunate aberration which will be put right imminently. In the absence of any such statement we can only assume that Andy's account was accurate and that the HR procedures will remain suspended indefinitely, so anyone contemplating volunteering would be wise to go elsewhere.
     
  4. 6960 Raveningham Hall

    6960 Raveningham Hall Member Friend

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    Mike, if you are referring to some of the recent contributors to this thread (I have three in mind) don’t offer too much encouragement.
    They are clearly mischievous and would be a disruptive influence in the mess rooms or on the footplate.
    Just my opinion of course, but I think the railway I love and support has enough problems already.
     
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  5. flying scotsman123

    flying scotsman123 Resident of Nat Pres

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    An interesting post. It does show that "one railway" hasn't made as much progress as might be desirable. I've described the GWSR's recruitment process, yet I have no idea whether it's the trust or the plc that run it, I doubt the members of the recruitment team could give a definitive answer either, it's just "the railway". By default, everyone involved in running it is both a member of the trust and a volunteer for the Plc, and likewise all recruits. It shouldn't be for a particular organisation to run recruitment, it should be for the railway to run it. Quite what that looks like on the WSR I'm not sure, as the differences between the Plc and WSRA seem so entrenched. The fact there has been argie-bargie over this as recently as 2019 is not encouraging for the "one railway" aim.
     
  6. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    Mel,

    A little one sided if I may say so.
    What you fail to grasp is that WSR plc asked WSRA to step in and fund and run the recruitment of volunteers. This was something we'd done historically and something we can do from within our charitable objects. Put simply it removes a cost from the WSR plc they could not really afford. Sadly this does come with a certain amount of governance requirement attached as it's charity money being spent.
    You also fail to acknowledge that when others became involved they found a backlog of unanswered correspondence from potential volunteers.
    In any event its time, I suggest, to put the past in the past and concentrate on the future.
    In answer to what has been happening other than working through the backlog. A whole new series of volunteer role profiles have been created and approved by the WSR plc, perhaps slightly slower than anybody would have liked (but also perhaps understandable given the other challenges). These are now ready for printing. An agreement has been reached that there will be a single portal and single system through which all volunteers will come to the railway. This will ensure that everybody has a common understanding of both railway safety, behaviour standards and PTS requirements where required. There will also be monitoring of volunteers in post to establish some metrics about retention, drop out rate etc. so that we can understand what is happening and if changes to systems are required. Additionally we'll be going out locally and promoting volunteering to the local communities. Our rational being that anybody who is prepared to travel half way across the country does not need to be actively recruited, as others have said they'll beat a path to our door anyway (... and they will be very welcome). Looking to the future our belief is that we'll need much more local recruitment. We see the cost of volunteering for those at a distance becoming more of a barrier due to the distances they have to travel and the costs associated (using myself as an example - fuel costs £35 per visit and accommodation costs of approx. £40 per day - and yes I could shave a little off these numbers, but not a lot). In reaching this conclusion we've had to acknowledge that the era of the "early retired on a final salary pension" volunteer is coming to an end. We are also well aware that the third sector is becoming increasingly competitive for labour. There a lots of things that people can volunteer for and we are in competition with large charities in a lot of cases.

    On a personal note I'm glad that you are coming back to work in a volunteer capacity on the WSR. Look forward to seeing you around the patch.
     
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  7. aldfort

    aldfort Well-Known Member

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    I am genuinely interested to know why you say this.
    I'll give you a personal perspective as to why I ask.
    I volunteer on the footplate so I think I know what's happening on the railway fairly well. I'm there most weeks of the year doing something.
    I understand how difficult it is for the railway to actually run each day, the challenges that have to be overcome on an almost daily basis. There is no "them" when I'm doing this role there is only "us". We know we're not perfect, but we try bloody hard to get it right day in and day out. Now when I see those who don't volunteer constantly referencing "them" and how "they" fail to offer everything and solve every problem at a stroke it's a little hard to take. It's, if anything harder when I see volunteers refer to "them". There is no "them". The railway is its volunteers without those volunteers it would not be there. That does not mean that you don't need structure BTW. My "boss" on the railway is a volunteer but I still need to do what I'm told, it is after all safety critical work we are doing in the main.
    I also volunteer as a trustee. The job of the charity is simple to explain, we are there to find the cash the railway needs to run that does not come in via the fare box. This sum has been very clearly stated by the WSR plc Chairman as around £500k per year (or a bit more if possible.;)). It's a different sort of volunteering but it's as important as showing up and offering labour for free. It takes up, if anything, more of my time that the footplate work. I fully accept that some folks don't understand the mechanics of the role. As I've said it's easy to define the output, but what does it take to deliver? If there are people on NP who could make a real contribution to the process then it will be listened to. I'd love to have people more skilled than I am on the trustee board. In what way is that statement "striking down criticism from outsiders"? It's the opposite, it's an appeal to those who have the required skills to come and help.
    There is, of course, a large difference between destructive and constructive criticism. I always welcome the latter and there are a number of considered commentators to NP who do offer insights that are very helpful. What's not helpful is to be told "they" need to do more with no indication as to "how" that might be achieved. Which brings me back to the point. If folks have the knowledge then please come and help with the work.
     
  8. Jf4200

    Jf4200 New Member

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    Mike, I'm going to have to agree with Forestpines' comment, your responses recently have come across negative and slightly aggressive on occasions. A bit of a 'I know best' attitude.

    I've been a volunteer on the West Somerset Railway for 12 years now, very rarely in those 12 years have I heard one of my fellow volunteers or paid members of staff fight negativity with negativity. Otherwise if we all did that, nobody will want to visit, or volunteer at this wonderful railway, and there very quickly wouldn't be a railway. Those who have tried to fight fire with fire have very quickly realised they are doing more damage than good and have either changed there attitude or moved on to pastures new. Fighting negativity with negativity fuel the haters/trolls more and more.

    Other railways will always project a positive image of themselves, even when they are being fired with negativity from every angle. Those railways don't have a 1149 page thread on Nat Pres...
     
  9. jnc

    jnc Well-Known Member

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    Good to see these two critical points clearly recognized.

    Noel
     
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  10. torgormaig

    torgormaig Part of the furniture Friend

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    What an interesting perspective on @aldfort contributions to this thread. As a complete outsider to the goings-on on the WSR he does not convey negativity to me at all, unlike some other posters. Indeed I find it quite reassuring that there are those on the railway who are trying hard to tackle the problems in a realistic and open manner. Whether this is successful or not only time will tell, but if not it won't be for want of effort on his part. I can understand if people feel his responses are a bit defensive at times, and in the circumstances of this thread who can be surprised at that, but I do not equate defensiveness with negativity. Rather I think his efforts convey a sense of optimism for the future.

    Peter
     
  11. gwilialan

    gwilialan Well-Known Member

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    I don't want to come across as one of those "negative gricers" - I always try to be at least a little proactive - but this entry does raise a couple of points of concern for me.

    "A whole new series of volunteer role profiles have been created..." "These are now ready for printing." Are you reinventing the wheel here? In the time the railway has been in existence I feel it would be fair to suggest that individual roles should be well known by now. Developed either by management proposal or by the volunteers/departments themselves organising specific roles that suit the department requirements. And why send them off to the printers? If the current drive is for cost & efficiency savings why not keep them soft-copy and print off only those needed, saving storage costs and possible wastage?

    My other concern is that all you have said there, as complete and necessary as it may or may not be, only refers to the management of volunteers, with references to the actual recruitment of volunteers planned in the next year or so.

    Yes, I freely accept that there have been much more important things on the table over the past year than volunteer recruitment but have they taken up every minute of every Trustees time at every Board Meeting? Would it have been impossible to spend the time to appoint a volunteer coordinator to get the ball rolling or does the whole Board have to deal with this?

    The time these (to many, apparently simple) things take to achieve only allows the questions and negative comments to arise. A while back now the WSRA was rightly criticised for being too slow in making announcements, sometimes even making those announcements on the day or even after events. I know you are all volunteers with limited time to do what you have to rather than what you need to do but viewed from afar the operation and reaction of the management does seem pretty lethargic.
     
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  12. Forestpines

    Forestpines Well-Known Member

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    Apologies firstly for the amount I have cut from the above quote.

    I say that because the way that you say things does indeed come across more as a way to invalidate criticism than to embrace it. The phrase "sniping from the armchair" is a doubly-negative one - firstly in its use of the word "sniping" and secondly in implying that any criticism is from people with no actual knowledge of railways. There are many frequent contributors to this thread who are not WSR volunteers but are volunteers and/or paid staff on other railways, and that is without considering those who can bring in useful experience from other fields.* Describing anything critical that anyone outside the WSR might say as "sniping from the armchair" makes it sound as if you are immediately dismissing anything said. Going on to say that the answer is for them to step up and help doubles down on the implication that outsiders are not welcome in Somerset: you have to become an insider first.

    I'm not saying that this is the effect you intended to give - in fact, I'm sure you don't given your reply to me. I am saying that maybe you should take more care over your phrasing if you don't want to give people this impression.

    Just to clarify something I said here: I have never thought Mike's posts are particularly aggressive, although I do agree that they have an "I know best" attitude. At worst, I'd say that Mike comes across as tetchy and frustrated. When I said I have seen posts from people in official positions that were verging on aggressive, I had other people's posts in mind.

    * there are no doubt a number of people on Nat Pres who are luminaries in their chosen profession, but it being unrelated to railways you might never know. The other month I was reading the classic work of 1990s computing literature The Unix-Hater's Handbook and discovered a quote from a regular contributor to this thread!
     
  13. jma1009

    jma1009 Well-Known Member

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    The only date Mike Sherwood (aldfort) proposed to me for meeting up with him, when I made my enquiry to volunteer a month or so previously, was on 1st October, when he knew I was then back in work (I had booked annual leave from 19th to 30th September - which details Mike knew in advance).

    The offer of a meeting was for a pint at Bishops Lydeard in the evening, when I usually finish work at 8pm, requiring a 160 mile plus round trip, to meet up with him, when the railway was obviously not running that night. This was a ridiculous suggestion on Mike's behalf, especially as we live not more than 40 minutes drive from one another in South Wales, and I am somewhat closer to the WSR than Mike is.

    I received a very rude, impolite, and hectoring PM on here from Mike yesterday morning.

    Cheers,

    Julian
     
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  14. baldbazza

    baldbazza New Member

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    I don't understand what benefit it is to you, to the WSR or to anybody else to continually bring this up. You obviously feel you've been badly treated and @aldfort obviously feels you haven't. Neither of you appears to want to budge so why not just accept that and move on? We're only on this planet for a short while; surely those precious minutes spent writing all these posts could be better utilised?
     
  15. pgbffest

    pgbffest New Member

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    I suspect it is like somebody putting on Facebook that they are in hospital - expecting lots of sympathy "you ok hun" messages, but not really saying what the actual problem is or dealing with it privately?
     
  16. Victor and Vulcan are due to steam together at North Tyneside Railway's Bagnall Reunion Gala over Bank Holiday weekend, 8th, 9th & 10th May.

    Must be a few years since they both worked together, presumably at the WSR.
     
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  17. Mel Hillman

    Mel Hillman New Member

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    Mike - hardly one sided given recent posts on here by you and others. However I am prepared to move on after 'defending' my previous role and the ridicule received by the small working group set up by the Plc this time last year in trying to deal with improving volunteer recruitment. Actions on most of the things you mention were already in place. I could bore everyone with the details but that wouldn't help anyone. Yes, let's move on - the efforts of thousands of volunteers over the last 40 years deserve success - but I will be keeping an eye on things.
     
  18. Andy Norman

    Andy Norman Member

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    I think with respect the point is being missed here. It’s not about individuals, It’s about a potential volunteer who tried to volunteer and a railways management representative who hasn’t or couldn’t ‘make it happen’. The railway is responsible for attracting volunteers and a potential volunteer should be made to feel welcome not made to feel at fault. I will quickly say I’m not having a go at Mike who is somebody I know well and somebody who I have worked closely with in the past, I know he will be frustrated and if I’m being charitable that’s clear in some of his posts recently, but pushing back to people trying to help doesn’t cure the actual issue. I would say within WSR Management Mike is in fact one of the more positive people. The issue is one of Culture and that has to be driven by the people in charge.

    It’s clear the WSR and other railways need more volunteers and I think Julian is trying to make the point that he was not able to become a volunteer easily and as a result of trying a number of times with a number of people has given up, then when WSR Management on here say it’s not their fault and he needs to try harder to volunteer he has just given facts to correct what happened because he has to defend himself. The posts here are just a symptom, the true cause needs addressing because the WSR needs more volunteers or it will reduce in size or close.

    Anybody can say a potential volunteer should keep trying and if needed just turn up overalls in hand or argue in private and if you don’t do that you are not worth considering by a railway to join. However, the world of volunteering has changed and the management of all railways need to have a positive, inclusive culture to attract Volunteers in a competitive market or they are likely to fail.

    I would recommend that everybody who is interested should read this months Steam Railway, it has an article “Preservation, the way forward”. I’ve posted here in the past about the need to change culture, the way people running railways think and act and what good Governance looks like. This article covers much of what has been talked about here and more (anybody would think they read Nat Pres!!), and it suggests that in some cases management have failed to change with what are now as they state “middle sized companies” who are now “multi-million pound turnover business’s” and no longer a couple of blokes and ½ mile of track who can make the rules up as they go along (no specific railways mentioned in this context). I agree with what Steam Railway has said, I’ve posted about this in detail in the past and good on them for grasping this particular nettle and bringing the things talked about here to a wider audience and good on Nat Pres for having a forum for such debates which whilst may feel negative and aggressive sometimes do allow things that need to be discussed and brought into the light of day for the benefit of all railways in a changing future.

    Andy (still not able to enjoy the hobby of his choosing)
     
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  19. Dan Taylor

    Dan Taylor New Member Account Suspended

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    Why would anyone want to do that, when thats the attitude of others on the railway?
     
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  20. Dan Taylor

    Dan Taylor New Member Account Suspended

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    I had spare time, but judging on my research and talking to people,

    I offered my spare time elsewhere,

    As I've said I'd of loved to of offered a pair of hands to groups on the line.

    So yes I can speak as a volunteer, So I suggest to you, That you need to put the wooden spoon away and stop stirring yourself.

    Or should I not say that because, I'm not allowed an opinion because it doesn't match yours?

    For someone who claims not to be an apologist, you seem pretty well versed at it....
     

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