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FR & WHR & WHHR News

Discussion in 'Narrow Gauge Railways' started by AndrewT, Jul 17, 2012.

  1. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    An even better pair up would be War Department Baldwins and Alcos in steam together.
     
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  2. weltrol

    weltrol Part of the furniture Friend

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    Add in the Hunslet 4-6-0T as well and a few W^D tractors...
     
  3. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    I think on current tallies, there are two Baldwins, and Alco and a Hunslet all with current boiler tickets...
     
  4. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    .... and one very well known Alco (1265) without! :(

    Is there any news on current F&WHR thinking regarding Mountaineer?
     
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  5. meeee

    meeee Member

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    Can't see much happening in the near future unless it was farmed out to someone else. Lyd, Taliesin, and Linda all have boiler tickets expiring in the next couple of years. There's a double engine to build plus two others to keep going, not to mention everything else.

    Sadly, a group stepped forward to take it on when it was first withdrawn and were knocked back. They are now doing a great job of the C2 instead. No doubt a lot has changed since then, but it seems like a missed opportunity.

    On the positive side Lilla is nearly back in action again and Welsh Pony is making steady progress with the smokebox being assembled at the weekend.

    Tim
     
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  6. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Cheers Tim (@meeee). I keep an eye on the C2 website. Frustrating times with the boiler situation. Many thanks for the welcome update on Welsh Pony too. Hopefully, Lyd's first 10 year boiler exam won't throw up too many horrors, and it'll be interesting to see how the lessons learned from a decade of experience with this superb loco get applied to the upcoming L&B editions.

    Re: Mountaineer, what I was more wondering was whether there's any general agreement on the scale of rebuild needed, as there seem to be (at least) two independent schools of thought. AIUI, there's some question over what the condition of the century old bar frames means could reasonably be achieved (i.e. whether or not the restored loco will be relegated to 'operable relic' / 'heritage' status). If it gets left too long, there's got to be an outside danger the name might be appropriated by the 'Heritage Group" for a recreated 'original' Small England! :)
     
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  7. DcB

    DcB Well-Known Member

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    From Festipedia on Mountineer II
     
  8. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    You are aware that one is being built at present, with that name? More details further up thread, but physical parts for it now exist (I know, I made them!) although possibly not the frames yet.

    No official connection with the FR, it's a private venture as I understand, although I think the FR have helped with drawings etc.

    No idea what the likely timescale is to a completed loco.
     
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  9. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    Well, I'm aware now! :)

    Names .... names .... names .... I wonder .... England or Holland? Too mischievous? :Wideyed:
     
  10. Hunslet589

    Hunslet589 New Member

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    I'm pretty sure not... Depending on who you speak to the frames are either bent or twisted or both. But it seems probable that no-one knows for sure until it gets stripped down for a proper assessment. It should be no surprise that a set of frames intended to last a few months should after a hundred years need a lot of TLC.

    With that in mind this time around will be the opertunity to deal with issues that have been hanging over the Alco for some time. I am going to offend the purists mightily I am sure but in my personal opinion it should be rebuilt as a 2-6-4T.

    Because :

    1. If a lot of time and effort is to be expended on the frames anyway now is the time to deal with the long standing issues

    2. Coal firing needs to be reinstated but the current configuration makes that almost impossible. The current boiler is the same as that on the ladies and is longer than the original. This means that the firebox projects a long way into the cab. So much so that there is minimal room between the firebox and the bunker. Not a problem if you are oil firing but far too small a gap to swing a very small cat never mind a shovel. The solution of course is to shift the cab and bunker back a few feet - and you need a bogie to support that.

    3. That longer boiler hanging off the back of the coupled wheelbase means that the weight distribution is quite a long way from ideal. Plans have been afoot for years to deal with the problem but nothing has yet been done. Now would seem to be the time and a rear bogie would make that a much simpler task.

    4. The downhill ride is poor to say the least - that rear pony truck does not seem to do much is terms of guidance into the curves. Which can't do the track any favours. A bogie should be much better at the job.

    5. Another change that has been talked about for years is an increase in the water capacity. The current tanks are best described as 'adequate'. You must leave Port with brim full tanks if you want to reach TYB with anything left. Or take a top-up at Minf. A repositioned cab would allow for larger tanks. I will confess that the only time I have failed in section during my FR driving career was when we ran out of water on this loco - so perhaps I am bit biased!

    An alternative to the above is to fit a new shorter boiler - but the existing one should have plenty of life in it yet so that seems like expensive overkill. It is possible of course that when looked at properly the boiler will need replacement anyway. I have even heard a proposal to fit a Vanderbilt style tender...

    I think the short answer to your question is that no decision seems to have been made yet as to the scale of the work required. Which seems entirely resonable until more information becomes available as to the current state of the loco once it gets taken to bits and can be properly assessed.
     
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  11. michaelh

    michaelh Part of the furniture

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    The better alternative would be to restore it to it's as-built condition.
     
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  12. meeee

    meeee Member

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    There's a lot of Chinese whispers about the ALCo, what is wrong with it and what to do with it. As far as I know plans for drastic changes have never held much favour with the management. It is most likely to come back as it is now. I strongly suspect that most of the people who would actually do the work would take the same view.

    The tall and short of it is the loco is worn out from the rails up. However it has been a successful performer in its present form and there is nothing you say it couldn't be again. A lot of the issues described are also present in other locos currently in use. If you try to make the project more complicated than it needs to be then it will never happen.

    That being said the boiler design is compromised to fit into an engine it will never go in. It may just more practical to make one that fits the engine properly and deals with issues such as the poor tube layout.

    I believe part of the problem with the water capacity is that the design of the top feed means that some of the water ends up going down the drivers side feed pipe and onto the track. Rather than in the boiler. Interestingly Lyd had run out of water a few times lately because it was spraying water on the track and not in the boiler too. Of course if you convert to coal you use a lot less water because you're not running the atomiser for the oil firing.

    I always like this idea that there is no space to swing a shovel. Firstly it isn't a Jubilee so you don't need to swing it anyway. Secondly have a look how much space there is on a double engine.

    Tim
     
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  13. LesterBrown

    LesterBrown Member

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    But it wouldn't then fit on the FR, though it could still be used on the WHR.

    [​IMG]
    Photo attribution Gwernol at English Wikipedia
     
  14. Miff

    Miff Part of the furniture Friend

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    That would be a shame since it would destroy a long history of interesting alterations, all made for good reasons. Anyone who wants to restore something like this to ‘original’ condition should consider building a replica instead.
     
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  15. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    Not a lot of point in building a replica when there is a fully functional example running in pretty much original condition, especially since in an FR context a replica isn't going to be very useful.

    Still doesn't resolve the question of what to do with the FR example (put it in the NRM and restore LT? :Angelic:)
     
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  16. 60044

    60044 Member

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    If it is of no real use to the FR, why not see if there's a group around willing to take it on long term loan and rebuild it to original form? I'd be willing to bet that there would be takers!
     
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  17. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    If any loco can be described as more valuable in it's present state and location, I'd suggest it's LT, as to get it running would involve new bogies and tbh I'm not even certain the wheelsets or cylinders would be fit for resuse. The boiler dates from the old company (heavily repaired by Vulcan Foundry back in the 50s) and has certainly seen better days. "Totally clapped out" wouldn't be an unduly inaccurate description. To produce a loco vaguely useful for service trains would take us straight back to the arguments surrounding it's withdrawal in the 70s.

    The "Heritage Group" has long had a replica "Little Wonder" on it's wishlist, but the reason for the original's early demise were inextricably linked with design shortcomings on what was very much a working prototype. Any halfway faithful recreation couldn't realistically be considered more than a very expensive ornament.
     
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  18. estwdjhn

    estwdjhn Member

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    My comment about LT was very much tongue in cheek - I am reasonably well aquainted with her condition.
     
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  19. 30854

    30854 Resident of Nat Pres

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    .... and it's unique (and rather effective) fire supression system? :)
     
  20. marshall5

    marshall5 Well-Known Member

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    I have a soft spot for WW1 locos so I suppose I'm biased but the F.R. is, thankfully, a very different place than it was in the 70's when the priority was simply 'bums on seats' with little respect to the railway's history. In the those days the Alco was needed as a front line loco and butchering it to suit the, then, needs was deemed acceptable. John Ransom purchased the loco to see it preserved and, IIRC, the agreement to donate it to the F.R. states that when it is no longer needed it will be displayed - I don't know if the agreement states the condition in which it should be displayed.
    Now that the loco is no longer needed for front line service and there is a proven demand for more historical events surely it makes sense, when its turn comes, to restore it to closer to WW1 condition. The chances are that its 80's boiler is life expired so a reversion closer to the original design should cost little more. As pointed out above, if the as built outline is restored the loco will be restricted to BL - Caernarfon. Is that a bad thing?
    Does anyone know if any of the removed parts still exist e.g. slide valves and valve chests? In a recent picture of Minfford yard there was a boiler in the background which looked as if it could have been from the Alco. Can anyone confirm this?
    Considering the interest that has been generated by the restoration of the War Office Hunslet, and, now, the two Baldwins I believe that the opportunity to restore the Alco shouldn't be missed.
    Ray.
     
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